Which Rogue talent to take first?

[SnowleopardVK]

This is actually a question I'm posting on behalf of a friend (I'll convince him to get an account of his own when I'm not tired) who is a fellow player in my group.

He's our rogue, and we're all 1st level at the moment but have been picking up enough experience that it's time to start putting some thought into what we'll each be doing upon level-up.

Now as a rogue, he gets his first Rogue talent at 2nd level, and he wants to know what the "best" one to take is. My suggestion to him was Assault Leader (from the APG) since he's a close-combat rogue and that talent would help him work well in tandem with both our cleric and me (I'm the group's fighter). His own thought at the moment is to take Major Magic, and as a result gain 2 shots of Color Spray per day, thus giving himself plenty of sneak-attack potential, especially since we and our enemies are all still low level at this point.

At any rate, he wants the further opinion of the internet on this. As I've said, he's a melee rogue; 15 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha. He wields a short-sword, has no ranged ability whatsoever, and most of his skills aren't social ones.

I think his intention is to go Arcane Trickster eventually, but I'm not positive. I don't think he's completely made up his mind yet to be honest.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You need Minor Magic first to get Major Magic. And Assault Leader is 1/day, therefore bad IMO. There's no obvious best (well, some really stand out, but no best first pick, at least), it depends on his character and what he wants to do. I rated the rogue talents here, if it helps.

I think the best ones are:
Bleeding Attack
Combat Trick
Cunning Trigger
Finesse Rogue
Quick Disguise
Quick Trapsmith
Rogue Crawl
Slow Reactions
Weapon Training

I'd say pick from those. Quick Trapsmith is only good in tandem with Cunning Trigger, Weapon Training's mostly nice if going an Intimidate --> Dazzling Display routes, Finesse Rogue is pointless if his str is close to his dex score or if he took it at level 1 already, obviously. And so forth. Depends on his character which of those are most useful. If he is planning to going into Arcane Trickster, getting Minor and Major Magic seems like a big waste, though.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

Oh. I didn't even notice that in the major magic text (but yep, there it is...). Ah well, that's what happens when he tries to get me to post questions at my bedtime and I'm forced to stay up past 10PM.

From that list he's most interested in Bleeding Attack and Slow Reactions or so I've been told.

As for the Arcane Trickster plan; yeah he's still deciding on it. He's also considering taking Minor Magic for Mage Hand (a requirement of Arcane Trickster) and then going into an arcane class that doesn't have Mage Hand on its spell list. (I don't know which class that is that he's thinking of yet. It's apparently not a core class and he said he has to talk to the GM before he makes up his mind.)

 

[Dingo333]

first off, the only arcane spell caster without mage hand is the witch

secondly, detect magic is somewhat more useful as you can use it to find magical traps. Also, vanish is better as a major magic choice. Invisible for up to 5 rounds.

thirdly, he will need to multiclass to get the required 2nd level spell, that was changed specifically because of the major magic talent

Bleeding talent is probally the best to get, and it pairs nicely with the murderer's blackcloth (APG, studded leather armor)

 

[SnowleopardVK]

first off, the only arcane spell caster without mage hand is the witch

Not quite; I've gotten an update on which mystery class he was considering. It's the Archon class.

Archon - Pathfinder_OGC

Our GM has said that he'll allow going archon and then arcane trickster if the rogue chooses to go that route; and the archon is in fact an arcane spellcaster that doesn't get mage hand.

Although I think I'll be recommending to him either way that he doesn't go with minor magic as his first rogue talent. Unless of course he plans to only do 3 levels of rogue in which case he'll have to to go that route. I don't have insight into his mind, so I don't know.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

*Glances over the first levels of the class, since that's all the player would be taking*

A d10 HD full BAB class with Bard-like casting progression seems overpowered at first glance. Maybe their spell list is uber terrible to make up for it, I don't know.

That Increased Spell Maximum feat seems super duper broken, especially with the ability to take it more than once.

Rivenspell: Blatantly obvious he wants Bolt to get a swift action ranged force attack to apply SA damage to. Probably alright, no real reason to ever sacrifice a higher level slot in his case, though that's also probably fine.

All that said, he may want to reconsider. Wizard gives more spells and higher level spells, and while the class chasis (HD, saves, etc...) is weaker...the point is you're not going to be IN the arcane casting class for very long, so you're forfeiting any advantages the Archon gives in that regard as soon as you enter the prestige class. The disadvantage of slower spell progression remains with you, however.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

I think he may want the Archon class for its ability to cast in armour without a chance of failure. He wears light armour at the moment so it'd make sense.

The Archon spell list is... Okay. Wizard/Sorcerer is a better list for sure, but there's a decent amount of choice for Archons. I think what makes up for their good qualities is a rather low number of maximum spells known.

(Also, I scrolled down to the User Comments section of the Archon page. One person who claims to have tried the class says it's underpowered. Their info may or may not be accuracte; can't say for sure as I haven't tried the class myself.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mithral armor is an option, too. As is the Mage Armor spell. If he's going to do Archon over wizard, it should be for that swift action attack, the better HD, BAB, and so forth become moot as soon as he enters Arcane Trickster. I'm just saying, I think Wizard would be the best choice.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

Probably would be yeah. What he does isn't my choice in the end though. I'm just the one posting the topic.

(He's been turning down suggestions of Wizard so far. I assume Special Snowflake Syndrome is in effect and he doesn't want to take wizard levels because another member of the party is already playing a wizard.)

On a side note; despite wanting to know what the "best" rogue talent is, he doesn't really need to pick the best one. None of the group is really big on optimization, GM included. Our games tend to work fine even if some or all of the PCs are sub-par examples of how to play their chosen classes well.

 

[gamerprinter]

How about considering the Magus class?