Which wiz/sor spells are best for Persistent Spell?

[Li Shenron]

I would like to make a comparison between 3.0 and 3.5 regarding to this question. Let's start only with Wizard/Sorcerer spells... Persistent Spell is a metamagic feat that changes a spell with duration other than instantaneous or permanent into a spell with duration of 24 hours. You need to already have the Extend Spell feat as a requisite, so in a way PS is a second-level feat of a chain so it's ok for me to be better than others.

In 3.0 Persistent Spell costs +4 level increase, and in my opinion this used to be a fair price, however some spells (the ones which are powerful but balanced with a very short duration) are really good to be persistent-ed:

Resistance: +1 to all ST, costs a 4th slot
Detect Magic: still needs concentration for more info, costs a 4th slot
Shield: +7 AC (one side) and +3 reflex, costs a 5th slot
Detect Secret Doors: still needs concentration for more info, costs a 5th slot
Detect Thoughts: works as detect-sentient-creature or concentrate to read thought, costs a 6th slot

Lesser choices but still good could be Message (4th), Protection from Evil (5th), Detect Undead (5th)... These seemed to me quite good uses of the feat, but not game breaking, except maybe Shield. What do you think? Other spells to suggest?

In 3.5 it's very different, because the cost of +6 slot actually doesn't make it seem worth for any spell, it would have been maybe worth for Shield but the spell is changed to +4 AC only, and it's definitely not worth a 7th slot! Is there ANY use of Persistent spell for an arcane caster in 3.5?

 

[hong]

Persistent Tenser's transform. Trust me, I'm a statistician.

 

[shilsen]

Persistent Tenser's transform. Trust me, I'm a statistician.

That's a 12th lvl slot, mang!

 

[hong]

Everyone knows that 12 = 7, for small values of 12 and large values of 7.


Hong "I did say I was a statistician" Ooi

 

[Thanee]

Shield
Expeditious Retreat
See Invisibility
Arcane Sight
Ghostform
Kiss of the Vampire

An Incantatrix with uber Spellcraft will actually be able to get the last two running at a pretty normal level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vrecknidj]

So few spells are mentioned (and there are effective workarounds for all of them, specifically, being high enough level to just buy an item that does something similar), that this seems almost a reductio ad absurdum for why Persistent Spell is a poor feat choice.

Dave

 

[Thanee]

Persistent Spell is only really useful for Clerics (especially with Divine Metamagic) and Incantatrices now, I think. With the ability to ignore the spell level increase (more or less), however, it's also bordering to brokeness already.

As a regularily used metamagic feat it's highly inferior to Quicken Spell now.

Bye
Thanee

 

[cordell]

Weak feat. I may be repeating some of the reasons above, but:

1) Not enough spells to use it with, whether you are a cleric or wizard.

2) 6 levels is too many. This feat can be applied to a first level spell at level 13. At level 13, you can afford magic items instead...

3) To get around number 2, a cleric could get Divine Metamagic. IIRC, the cost is 7 turn attempts, so basically an 18 charisma cleric could do 1 first level spell, once per day. He does this by (a) having an 18 charisma, which means magic items and/or buff spell, (b) using a 2 feat slots, and (c) using all 7 turn attempts for the day.

Who in their right mind would take this feat? Granted, I don't have all the books memorized like some people on these boards, but it doesn't seem worth it.

 

[nhl_1997]

Shield
Expeditious Retreat
See Invisibility
Arcane Sight
Ghostform
Kiss of the Vampire

Which is more valuable to a high-level wizard / sorcerer: a single 8th level slot or three or four 3rd level slots plus a 2nd level slot? At 15th level, an extended See Invisibility will last five hours....

(edit)

Answer... it depends (of course) on the character.

 

[Li Shenron]

I wasn't really thinking about magic items... it's a good point of course.

But even before considering items, the reason why I don't find many uses for PS is that many of the spells that would be useful permanently (see invisibility, mage armor, animal-buff spells in 3.0) already have a long duration, and with Extend you basically cover all day, or half at least.

Buff spells in 3.5 would be great permanented, only that now they take an 8th-level slot! Basically it would have been better to either keep buffs as long as 3.0 or PS at +4.