Which would you rather have in your party?

[Lord Pendragon]

I voted for Cleric and Paladin, but that was assuming you meant ECL 10 Half Celestial Paladin. Is that accurate, or are you talking a Half Celestial Paladin 10 (ECL 14)? If the latter, I think the 4 ECL difference easily makes up for a cleric 6 levels lower.

I meant the full-blown ECL 14 half-celestial 10th-level paladin. And...you believe the benefits of the Half-Celestial template equal the abilities of an 8th-level cleric? Interesting. Why do you think so? Spellcasting alone seems to favor the cleric heavily.

I'm playing with the idea of asking my DM for the half-celestial template, instead of a cohort, for Leadership. We already have a really large party, so cutting out the extra character and extra loot splitting would be a bonus.

However, I'm not trying to munchkinize my PC, or break my game, so I wanted to know how people would compare a 10th-level half-celestial paladin (the time the PC would complete the template in my current rough draft of the proposal), with a 10th-level paladin with a traditional cohort. In my case, it would have been an 8th-level cleric.

It would seem that most people would find the cleric more useful/powerful, which seems to me to indicate that the template would not be too overpowered.

Any other thoughts? Flames?

 

[Tiew]

Aah, hmm, hmm, hmm. I'm going to have to say I agree that the cleric and paladin would be more powerful. But.... my initial reaction is to say that that would be a really bad use of the leadership feat. Just the fact that it would make it 10 times as powerful as any other feat in existance should ring some warning bells.

Let me try to reduce my general unease to a few points.

First, cohorts take a share of the gold and experience. This is one major disadvantage of having cohorts. What would you do about that difference?

Second, IMHO the main goal of balancing characters is to make it so everybody has an equal chance to shine and nobody gets to hog the glory too much. An extra lower level character probably helps everybody out some and doesn't take too much of the glory, and the glory they do get is sort of theirs, not your main characters. If instead you made your main character much more powerful you would end up outshining everybody. It seems like it would be a lot different.

Thirdly, i don't really know how the cohort system works very well, so maybe somebody else could flesh this out, but aren't there a lot of other small issues that arise from having a cohort? It seems that unless you make them without personalities there is at least some potential for conflict or confusion.

Just my thoughts.

Tiew

 

[Scion]

Could you do a full write up of your character + template vs character + cohort?

Being able to see exactly what will be gained would be most helpful (not to mention seeing which half celestial template).

Personally I would rather have the half celestial template for my own character but then I like messing with cohorts as little as possible and above I voted that the paly + cleric would be much better for the party overall.

 

[The Souljourner]

I meant the full-blown ECL 14 half-celestial 10th-level paladin. And...you believe the benefits of the Half-Celestial template equal the abilities of an 8th-level cleric? Interesting. Why do you think so? Spellcasting alone seems to favor the cleric heavily.

Why? Because you do get spellcasting - you get +4 charisma, which means 2-4 bonus spells (granted, crappy paladin spells, but still...), plus you get the half celestial spell-like abilities which are pretty darn good.

You also get wings, damage reduction, spell resistance, a crapload of stat bonuses... do I need to go on? If your party already has a cleric or two (or a cleric and a couple minor healers, like a druid or bard), then another cleric is just not going to do nearly as much as an ECL 14 paladin with insane stats.

I'm playing with the idea of asking my DM for the half-celestial template, instead of a cohort, for Leadership. We already have a really large party, so cutting out the extra character and extra loot splitting would be a bonus.

Being a half celestial is worth WAY more than a feat. Leadership is too, but should be strictly controlled by the DM.

However, I'm not trying to munchkinize my PC, or break my game,

I hate to be flip, but... you may not have been trying, but you sure did succeed.

It would seem that most people would find the cleric more useful/powerful, which seems to me to indicate that the template would not be too overpowered.

Most people assume you get to tailor your cohort to your exact liking, that he'll do whatever you want him to as if by telepathic domination, and that he'll never ask for a share of the money or XP. That shouldn't ever be the case with a cohort. He has his own mind, does his own thing, and is not simply mini-me.

Don't underestimate the power of the half celestial paladin... wings, damage reduction, spell resistance, +4 will save, +4 fort save, +3 reflex save, +2 hitpoints per level, resistance 10 to cold, electricity and acid... all that makes you really damn tough. You'll easily outshine all the other PCs, which will be no fun for the rest of the people playing.

Personally, I'd forget both, and take some other feat you've been eyeing (paladins never get enough feats).

-The Souljourner

 

[Endur]

The Half-Celestial Template (ECL +4) is far more powerful than the leadership feat.

Give me a Paladin 10 Half-Celestial over the Paladin 10 and the Cleric 8 anyday.

Don't listen to the people talking about buff spells; most durations were nerfed in 3.5. The rest of the buff spells can be easily dispelled or take too much time to cast. The Celestial abilities are always on.

Wings. (non-dispellable flight, Doubling charge speed)
Natural AC +1.
Daylight at will.
Another Smite Evil 1/day.
A bunch of spell-like abilities, including Holy Smite and Cure Serious Wounds. At level 11, get Holy Word (Cleric doesn't get until level 13).
Darkvision
resistance 10 to acid, electricity, and cold.
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Spell Resistance 20
+4 save vs. poison
Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Chr +4

 

[Scion]

Leadership is a very strong feat indeed. Along with that the half celestial template has an LA much higher than it should be anyway.

Having the extra 8th level character (who does not lower exp gained by the party btw) is a pretty huge boon.

Lets kick it up a few levels.

Eventually the cleric will gain spell resistance at which point he can cast on himself and the paladin and whoever else. This SR will be better than that gained by the template.

Also the cleric can cast resist energy on everyone/anyone.

Along with all of the other benefits such as healing.


The paladin with the template would be stronger in a more personal way, but as the topic of the thread the party would be overall better by having the paladin and the cleric. Especially as levels increase.

Paying a feat to burn off a point or two of the LA seems like a fine way to go. But then, halfcelestial is too high anyway.

Spending leadership to get a symbiotic buddy from his god which grants the halfcelestial template certainly doesnt seem out of order. Effectively it is like a personal little cleric who likes casting buff spells only on the paladin. Giving up the other parts of the leadership feat seems like an all right trade.

But again, for the party overall having the cleric would simply be better.

 

[Sejs]

I'd go with the paladin/cleric combo over the half-celestial paladin, personally. Three reasons:

A) The eggs-to-baskets ratio issue. Two seperate characters give a greater resistance to catastrophy than one character.

B) ECL on hurts on level related abilities: hit dice, BA, spells, smite, you name it. It's been my experience that ECL is nice on paper, but in game it's not your friend.

C) Characters with wings annoy me both as a player and a DM. Not characters that can fly mind you; characters with wings. Issues such as room required to use said wings, people's reaction to the winged character, total inability to be even remotely incognito and so forth.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Scion has spelled out a lot of good points that I agree with.

It just doesn't seem like the template is equal or far more powerful than the paladin+cohort. On top of that, Leadership usually gets stronger as you level up. By 20th-level, it seems obvious that a party would be better off with a 20th-level human paladin and an 18th-level cleric, than with a 20th-level half-celestial paladin. Each level the party gains weakens the template in comparison to the cohort.

Give me a Paladin 10 Half-Celestial over the Paladin 10 and the Cleric 8 anyday.

Fair enough. But the fact that 50+ people would choose the paladin+cleric over 3 people choosing the half-celestial paladin, leads me to believe that the general ENWorld consensus is that the cohort would be more powerful than what I'm suggesting.

(granted, crappy paladin spells, but still...)

This is the crux of it. I've been reading and re-reading the paladin spell list. The crappy spells, combined with the horrendous caster level, means paladin spells are worthless with two exception. Bless Weapon and Holy Sword. Cleric spellcasting is anything but. The 8th-level cleric could hit the paladin with Greater Magic Weapon every morning and the occasional Divine Favor, at a cleric's caster level, and more than equal the paladin's entire spellcasting ability. :/

You also get wings, damage reduction, spell resistance, a crapload of stat bonuses... do I need to go on?

No, I'm well-aware of the bonuses granted by the half-celestial template. The wings are nice, but our campaign is mainly a dungeon-crawl, so a place to unfurl those babies, and room to use them, is going to be hard to come by. Also, the paladin is a melee-focused character, so just flying at range and shooting arrows isn't going to do it. No archery feats + bad Dex = bad ranged attacks. So the wings come down to occasional usefulness in avoiding obstacles--like walls--rather than the extreme combat power that a flying wizard might enjoy.

The template grants several nice defensive bonuses, and a couple good offensive ones, but these don't seem much stronger than what an 8th-level cleric could provide.

Being a half celestial is worth WAY more than a feat. Leadership is too, but should be strictly controlled by the DM.

This is a very important point. I'm not asking "is the half-celestial template worth a feat?" I'm asking "Is the half-celestial template too much to ask instead of a cohort?" The balance problem you are objecting to is with regards to Leadership itself, which is another topic entirely. Here, I'm asking, in a game where Leadership is allowed, would my proposal be totally out of whack? I tend to believe it's not.

I hate to be flip, but... you may not have been trying, but you sure did succeed.

Well, from the replies in this thread and the voting, it seems fair to say this is a matter of debate.

Most people assume you get to tailor your cohort to your exact liking, that he'll do whatever you want him to as if by telepathic domination, and that he'll never ask for a share of the money or XP. That shouldn't ever be the case with a cohort. He has his own mind, does his own thing, and is not simply mini-me.

I partially agree. The cohort is an independent character, who gains a share of loot and xp. However, the cohort is dedicated to the PC. He will follow reasonable commands, he will place the PC's needs above any other party member's, he will use his abilities to assist the PC as best he can. He's not just a hireling, he's a devoted subordinate. Because of that, I don't think it's an assumption to say that the paladin will benefit from most of his abilities, or that he'll act in the paladin's best interests in nearly every circumstance.

You'll easily outshine all the other PCs, which will be no fun for the rest of the people playing.

I don't think it's so definite. The abilities are nice, but not overwhelming. In any case this thread has shown me that it's close enough to balanced for me to approach my DM with the idea. If he approves it and it gets out of hand, he can always dial it back later.

Personally, I'd forget both, and take some other feat you've been eyeing (paladins never get enough feats).

I definitely agree about wanting more feats. But I like Leadership. And I love the rp-idea of a half-celestial paladin. Even more, a paladin who is human, and being blessed with an infusion of divine energy, or as Scion mentioned, joined with a symbiotic celestial spirit.

Thanks to everyone who's participating in this thread. It's really helpful to be able to poll this community and get a general feel for how an idea would be received.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I'd prefer the half-celestial Paladin.

We've got plenty of characters in our group already,
adding two, with that player taking up twice as much
game time and spotlight time, would be worse than one.

Geoff.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Like posting twice is worse than once.

Oops.

Geoff.