Slaygrim said:
Wow! So many responses to a thread that I though was gone and buried. I only made it through the first page of responses before writing this up.
Okay guys, allow me to explain a little bit more here.
This campaign is designed to tie into an epic campaign I will be running at a much later date. I was well aware of the power of the NPC's but they were necessary considering the next campaign.
I never told the players the levels of the NPC's, but they like to "guess" and discuss amongst themselves rather than stay in character. I'm more of a roleplaying person and the rest of my group is more into playing the game to roll the dice. I wouldn't want to discuss the levels of the NPC's any more than is necessary, but these players are different.
Yes, there is a huge difference between gaming style in the group. The problem is that we don't know many other gamers. I recently called up an old friend to see if he would join the group as he is more of a roleplayer. Now that the whiner player is taking over as the DM, I am hoping my old friend and myself will be able to "set the tone" of our group by roleplaying our characters more. I hope the other players will have a better influence in that regard and become more into the story of the game rather than the dice.
As per this encounter, I see it as part of the story. The NPC's had done enough damage to innocents and to the PC's for them to stop amongst themselves and say, "Oh well, they are too powerful. Let's leave." but that was the attitude this player was displaying. HIs CHARACTER who is supposed to be a hero was being played like a gamer playing a fake character with too much information. I think if he is roleplaying he will fight to the death if needs be. Besides, he should trust me that I am not going to wipe out the characters.
As for the battle, yes, it appeared overpowering. But that's why you play the game. Because it WASN'T. The whole idea was that the ritual was going down and it was a race against time. The 19th level wizard could not participate in the initial battle because he had to finish the ritual before the PC's interfered.
When the PC's ran into the 19th level wizard immediately after, the wizard (and the PC's knew this before hand) had already battled through this dungeon himself, expending spells. So he was depleted some. I did this to a point to bring him down to an acceptable level of challenge. Yes, the PC's may not have put the pieces together, but the whining began before finding out on their own, and continued afterward even after getting through the battle.
And this isn't common. Normally the PC's have been walking through encounters. Yes, there has been a strong opponent here or there but they have overcome all. And these aren't typical 10th level characters. They are characters maximized. The PC's each designed their characters to be very powerful and each had their fair share of magical items. In fact, they were carrying around magic items to the equivalent of 15th level characters. Their magical buffs were still up as well.
The point is, that the whining isn't just for this, it's constant. Over nearly everything. A battle is too easy. A battle is too hard. A battle doesn't let me work my abilities. A spell ruins my character. All of this is out of character whining. I just wish they'd play their damned character.
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As far as the Iron Golems. They weren't put in the adventure to nerf the PC. They were not the only encounters either. The first dungeon had 2 Iron Golems, and the rest were undead that he could battle. He still whined about the Iron Golems. To the point to where I had to redesign the final dungeon and replace the golems with Helmed Horrors so he could "fight". There were other creatures too. It wasn't as if the entire gaming session had the golems, it was a couple battles, nothing more.
I will go back and try to read more of the responses here.
Thanks for the response Slaygrim. You confirmed pretty much everything I had assumed about this player based on previous experiences with this sort of person (both in gaming and non-gaming environments).
Now, while some people here might take exception to your DMing style, don't let it get to you. There is no right or wrong way to play. A narrative campaign with set encounters that weaves into a bigger picture is great, and you should be commended for putting that much forethought into the game. Also, you were a responsible DM for having the 19th level wizard have fought through the same dungeon and depleted many of his spells- it makes sense, and levels the playing field some.
The only caution I'd give you is don't assume the players will take some action or force them to do so. The problem with the former is that players do the damndest things, and will surprise you with a way to solve a problem you never considered. The problem with the latter is that being "railroaded" into doing certain actions takes the autonomy of the characters out of the players hands, and that his VERY frustrating. I don't see you railroading, but I can see how some people might think you are. I can tell you from experience, with a guy who was and is a good friend from high school but was the ultimate railroad DM (to the point where he actually had a script of events he wanted played out), that being forced to do something the DM has in mind causes player resentment and frustration. Its tempting for beginning DMs to do this, especially if you have an awesome scene in your mind- but resist the dark side. If you make the players do something, why play the game? A railraoding DM is much better off just writing stories.
You also confirmed something else I expected- that the group breezes through most encounters, and probably has an equivalent level of 13th or 14th due to gear, high point build, etc. Being in a fight where they weren't the top dogs might have been jarring to them- and to an immature player like your whiner, its a severe ego blow to suddely be upstaged. To the whiner, I'd reply "grow up- you're not the biggest, baddest thing in the world, otherwise this game would be boring as hell since there would be no challenge to you."
The bad news is, he won't see reason- EVER, and he will never EVER admit he's wrong or was acting childish. People like this guy who are immature, have a huge ego, inferiority complexes, and who want attention desperately (whether to be a "badass" or portray themselves as a victim), do these things because its a part of their personality/neurobiochemistry. So that leaves you with two choices- eject the guy from the group, or try to reason with him and make him see he's impacting other people's fun in the group. If however the rest of the group has no problem with the whining (and I can't imagine they COULD think his antics were ok), then I'd chalk this one up to differing playstyles and that means you should do the mature thing and excuse yourself from the group. You said you have another friend who is more narrative/roleplaying oriented- why not try to recruit some new non-gamers? People who have never gamed before are the perfect new players- they don't come in with munchkin dreams of grandeur, and take guidance in their playstyle and likes from the other players in the group. With this tactic, pretty soon you could wind up with a group of RP-heavy players, which seems like a better fit for your playstyle than the dice-slinging powergamers.
In any case, its good to hear more about this situation, and I wish you good luck in resolving it such that all parties are happy.
