Whinging Players or Munchkins?

[Neo]

Okay

now recently I've seen a few threads pop up questioning DM's and their abilities, judgements etc... and I felt in defence of DM's having been one myself for the last 22 years someone needed to come to our defence. (I would point out none of the other threads out there are about my GM;ing btw )

There are very very very very (and I can't stress this enough) VERY few players who ever appreciate the amount of work most GM's go to on thier behalfs. From crafting a story, developing the plot, personalising it, playing the villains, keeping the balance right, trying to please everyone, keeping it fun, making it interesting and so on and so forth.... and most of the time all we get for the effort is complaints, which in most instances are overly harsh, and most often because the players in question probably don;t realise how tough a job DM'ing can be..

Few players if any also ever realise that if we do not enforce a rule in a word for word from the rulebook fashion...thats not bad DM'ing or being harsh necessarily, in some instances it may, but most of the time its so we can get the result we need for story continuity, or because we don't want to use that rule in its current form.or sometimes simply because we can;t remember it (not that we need too) and just ad lib something off the cuff.

Its also very common for players to "expect" things to go thier way, and i can;t stress this point strongly enough, almost as if because they are playing the good guys the evil guy and his flunkies and all monsters then have to dumb it down to ensure that they can win.....that simply just isn't how it work guys honest.

Now speaking for myself I run a tough campaign, my players earn every benefit or success they get big time, and if they fail, well generally their too dead to care, now thats my choice I choose to run a tough game, and my PC's know that and adapt, but take it from one tough GM, that most of you players don;t know your born, let alone appreciate how good or how much effort your GM's are putting out for you.

sometimes the rules might not be book perfect, sometimes things might not make sense, or seem to have continuity, sometimes things will be downright annoying or frustrating..... but it isn;t always bad GM'ing, sometimes it may be, but it could just as easily be for other reasons, maybe even stroy reasons that your GM can;t really go into why things happen that annoy you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is give your GM's a break, they work hard, and more importantly they do it for YOU, the players. Last thing any GM wants is for his players to get so upset they never show up again, but this is not to say you will agree all the time, or that things which annoy you aren;t done for very good reasons you may never learn about.

Feedback is the best policy... me I tell my players all the time they have a problem, don't disupt the game (not that they always listen mind <g>), make note of it and let me know after, if its something I can resolve or explain I will, if its something i'm doing thats bad if possible or applicable I'll change it, and likewise for GM;s with muchkins or disruptive players, rules lawyers or any of the other stereotypes out there..... speak to your GM, and make sure he speaks to you! its no good stewing silently in a corner brooding about something which happened six weeks ago that really bothered you, and then ruining a game for everyone else because your still mad about it. COMMUNICATION is the key.

Remember:-
GM's are people too
Noones infallible
Sometimes GM;s do make bad calls
Sometimes what you think is a bad call, isn;t necessarily.
You may not always win
Nor are you required to always win simply because your the good guys
speak to each other!

Here endeth the rant

 

[Jeph]

I, fortuantely, do not have this problem, as all the players I currently GM for are either GMs themselves or are even-minded, good-willed gamers.

*sigh* If only the rest of the world were as lucksy . . .

I used to be majorly afflicted. I had 3 plaeyrs who didn't thoroughly know the rules, were munchkins, were complainers, and, all round . . . -insert derogatory phrase indicating lack of generall intelligence and aptitude her-.

Or, as former US presedent Clinton would say, "I *feel* your pain!"

night all,

-Jeph

 

[Creamsteak]

Nice job with the post.

/me applauds

 

[Neo]

I, fortuantely, do not have this problem, as all the players I currently GM for are either GMs themselves or are even-minded, good-willed gamers.

*sigh* If only the rest of the world were as lucksy . . .

I used to be majorly afflicted. I had 3 plaeyrs who didn't thoroughly know the rules, were munchkins, were complainers, and, all round . . . -insert derogatory phrase indicating lack of generall intelligence and aptitude her-.

Or, as former US presedent Clinton would say, "I *feel* your pain!"

night all,

-Jeph

Most of my players have been GM's too but most only once or twice, so they're still in the "we've done it once and now know it all" category sadly some of them still don't quite have the appreciation for how much effort goes into a game on thier behalf <chuckle>

but the above rant wasn't really aimed at my group who are for the most part fantastic players (they do have their moments though as I'm sure do I ). The above rant was more in general, I've read a heap of threads on these boards over the months where players bag thier GM out because they did something they don't know the reason for or didn't like...and while i'm sure some of the complaints were legitemate most times its just frustration from the player because they didn't get the outcome or result they wanted.

heh

We GM;s are an underappreciated bunch

 

[Neo]

Nice job with the post.

/me applauds

heh many thanks, someone needed to balance the scales LOL if only to explain a GM's perspective to otherwise oblivious players, who likely think we GM;s are just an evil bunch who simply do things to annoy them.

 

[National Acrobat]

Good post. Fortunately for me out of the 10 players that I run, 4 others DM and they understand, which rubs off on the players. The one person that used to rules lawyer and complain finally quit a few months ago because people told him to stop complaining and that if he wanted to see what it was like, he oughta DM. Anyway, I know that my group is mature enough to appreciate the work that I or any other DM in the group puts into it because they tell us so, and I also encourage feedback from my players.

 

[Black Omega]

One thing I do find is that I feel when I'm GM'ing, I'm also a better player. It gives me a better perspective on the game. I'm fairly lucky that even my non DM players are pretty patient.

 

[Holy Bovine]

heh many thanks, someone needed to balance the scales LOL if only to explain a GM's perspective to otherwise oblivious players, who likely think we GM;s are just an evil bunch who simply do things to annoy them.

You mean were not???!??!!!!


While I am one of the first to come to the defense of DMing and the thankless, work-heavy but ultimately fulfilling task that it is, I have to point out that there are bad DMs out there just like there are bad players (I won't use the m-word since no one really knows what the heck it means anyway ).

I'm not saying you're denying this but I have seen far more 'whiny player' threads than ever I have 'incompetent DM' threads. In the last week there have been a couple of Bad DMing threads (and honestly the one with the heading 'Cruel DM', if the player is giving an objective view, is a classic example of poor DMing skills if I ever saw one), but compare that to a months worth of threads and I doubt that Dm's would come out on the short end of tyhe stick.

As always IMHO and all that *waves hand dismissively*

 

[jollyninja]

i think the primary differences between an average dm (the ones the bulk of the warranted or otherwise complaints are about) and a good one is simply the ability to conceal the liberties they take from the players and the ability to adapt the storyline to unforseen events. an average to poor gm will do things like introduce variant rules in mid battle if that's what he has to do to keep his storyline intact. a good one will let the battle play out, flubbing the occasional roll and adding extra hp where nessisary without ever giving the players any indication what he has done or if they do something far more drastic, like using the retributive strike from a staff of power to kill the enemy, finding new villians to take the roles of the old ones.

i remember once as a player in 2e, a dm suddenly introduced the parrying rules from combat and tactics when my paladin unexpectedly trounced a giant in single combat. then when i tried to use them myself in the same battle he disallowed it so he could have one element of his story play out as he had it written that involved me losing the fight. if he had just allowed the giant to miraculously survive the attack by giving it more hp and swing again or introduced the plot element (which involved my character being hit with enough damage to take him below 0 hp) in the next battle and let me have the glory i deserved for bravely fighting the giant alone (as any paladin should) and getting lucky enough to critically hit it twice in a row i would never have known but the way he did it came off heavy handed and still irritates me a few years later. i try to avoid flubbing but it is a nessisary tool sometimes.

edit: so to the whole point, when your players start whining, just start doing a bettter job of hiding your liberties with the rules and when they ask why something does not work tell them their character does not know so niether should they. then you have to come up with a logical reason at some point. simply changing the rules is a cheap way out. there is allways a legitimate (see in the rules) reason that something might not work, you just have to find it so that if your players do, and find a way around that, you will be ready. if you advertise your campaign as dnd 3e, you should have the decency to play close to the books and announce house rules before play begins.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Okay

Its also very common for players to "expect" things to go thier way, and i can;t stress this point strongly enough, almost as if because they are playing the good guys the evil guy and his flunkies and all monsters then have to dumb it down to ensure that they can win.....that simply just isn't how it work guys honest.

Heh, running RttToEE and i'm really getting a kick out of the players faces when they realize "WTF?! A CHALLENGE?! Thats not in the rules or something...."

EDIT: Oh yeah, good post jollyninja. Spot on.