Whirling Frenzy from UA: Is it balanced?

[phindar]

I'd have to agree. Dropping the STR bonus does make WF much more competative with regular Rage.

 

[brehobit]

I'd have to agree. Dropping the STR bonus does make WF much more competative with regular Rage.

Say you've got a barbarian with a 16 STR (about average IME at lower levels) and you are trying to pick between WF and Rage. Say you expect that you need a 12, on the average to hit without rage and you do 2d6+4 damage (11 average) normally. All these seem about right.

With no rage/WF you get .45*11 for your average damage = 4.95
With rage you get .55*14 = 7.7
With WF you get 2*.35*11. = 7.7

Looks good so far on damage. I'm willing to say that the other differences (AC, hit points, will save, duration of rage) come out in favor of WF by a small amount (+4 AC is nice, but +2 will save, +2 hit points/level and +2 rounds of rage is also nice)

The problem is that rage usually gets used against your big baddy, so you generally see a higher AC. If you need a 16 initially, things get ugly:
no rage/WF: .25*11 = 2.75
rage: .35*14 = 4.9
WF: 2*.15*11 = 3.3

And if you need a 18 (without rage) the WF barbarian will do more damage by not being in a WF.

When you add in iterative attacks it gets even worse for WF. Maybe drop the STR bonus for WF to +2 would be a good compromise. I still like the idea of the 2nd attack having to be used against a different target. IME that will limit when WF is useful, but it will be obvious to the barbarian when to use it in-character (rather than needing to know AC to know if it is good idea or not...)



Mark

 

[SlagMortar]

I think the goal of the variant is to change the flavor of rage. Drop the strength bonus and instead give a +2 damage bonus when wielding a light or one-handed finessible weapon. Then Whirling Frenzy becomes the Dex based barbarian's counter part to Rage for the Str based barbarian.

 

[Felon]

So far it seems like the major fix options are:

A) The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first
B) The second attack can only be gained with a full-round action (which, it seems, may be implicit in the existing rules)
C) All of the above

Any others?

Well, like I said, replace the Str bonus with a melee weapon damage bonus.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Say you've got a barbarian with a 16 STR (about average IME at lower levels) and you are trying to pick between WF and Rage. Say you expect that you need a 12, on the average to hit without rage and you do 2d6+4 damage (11 average) normally. All these seem about right.

With no rage/WF you get .45*11 for your average damage = 4.95
With rage you get .55*14 = 7.7
With WF you get 2*.35*11. = 7.7

Looks good so far on damage. I'm willing to say that the other differences (AC, hit points, will save, duration of rage) come out in favor of WF by a small amount (+4 AC is nice, but +2 will save, +2 hit points/level and +2 rounds of rage is also nice)

The problem is that rage usually gets used against your big baddy, so you generally see a higher AC. If you need a 16 initially, things get ugly:
no rage/WF: .25*11 = 2.75
rage: .35*14 = 4.9
WF: 2*.15*11 = 3.3

And if you need a 18 (without rage) the WF barbarian will do more damage by not being in a WF.

When you add in iterative attacks it gets even worse for WF. Maybe drop the STR bonus for WF to +2 would be a good compromise. I still like the idea of the 2nd attack having to be used against a different target. IME that will limit when WF is useful, but it will be obvious to the barbarian when to use it in-character (rather than needing to know AC to know if it is good idea or not...)



Mark

If you need a 16 to hit the Big Bad normally with your best iterative for a full BAB class like Barbarian with reasonable Strength, the game is probably out of whack. It is generally balanced lower so that primary attacks of full-BAB characters who aren't Power Attacking are likely, so they can shine vis-a-vis the medium BAB--think of the poor Monk! If you're playing with critters that, as you claim, require a 16 for the Barbarian to hit out of rage, that means that the Monk probably needs a 20 (Monks must spread out stats and tend to have lower in their key attack roll stat than Barbarians, and the medium BAB takes care of the rest).

 

[brehobit]

If you need a 16 to hit the Big Bad normally with your best iterative for a full BAB class like Barbarian with reasonable Strength, the game is probably out of whack. It is generally balanced lower so that primary attacks of full-BAB characters who aren't Power Attacking are likely, so they can shine vis-a-vis the medium BAB--think of the poor Monk! If you're playing with critters that, as you claim, require a 16 for the Barbarian to hit out of rage, that means that the Monk probably needs a 20 (Monks must spread out stats and tend to have lower in their key attack roll stat than Barbarians, and the medium BAB takes care of the rest).

The best AC for a CR 3 creature I can find is AC 20. At first level, where a CR 3 encounter is reasonable as the "boss" the barbarian with a STR of 16 will need a 16 to hit. I agree, as levels go up the number needed for the first attack will generally drop.

Mark

 

[eamon]

It's balanced as is. The Con bonus is definitely relevant, esp. since at higher levels it often lasts long enough to last the entire encounter, in which case you have time to heal at the encounters end. The Fortitude save bonus is relevant. All attacks take a -2 penalty, which is roughly equivalent to a -4 on damage for normal barbarians which choose their power attack wisely. The advantage of an extra attack is indeed large at first level, but once players have several attacks anyways, then that one extra attack becomes progressively less relevant, while the fixes -2 to attack (or equiv. -4 to damage) stays. If you want to balance it, don't grant the AC bonus until 6th level to penalize level-dippers. But it's definitely not "way overpowered". At worst, it scales a little wonky. Finally, you could rule that the penalty of -2 on attacks remains even when you don't take the extra attack. I think that's in flavor and means you really need the full attack to gain the benefits.

So my suggestion is: Interprete the -2 penalty to be present always (not just when you choose to make the extra attack), and of course, you need to perform a full attack action to gain an extra attack. Otherwise just delay the AC boost a few levels.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The best AC for a CR 3 creature I can find is AC 20. At first level, where a CR 3 encounter is reasonable as the "boss" the barbarian with a STR of 16 will need a 16 to hit. I agree, as levels go up the number needed for the first attack will generally drop.

Mark

Ah, yes. I agree that at level 1 or so, things can be quite wonky, but of course there are a great many things that change after that (and as you mention, iteratives are in favour of the non-WF, but that is also when the rolls needed to hit bosses with early attacks drop). Admittedly, party buffs or Weapon Focus could make the odds a bit better for the level 1 full-BAB guy, but I'll readily admit that a base +4 is fairly average for such a character. Still, if AC 20 is the highest of them all, I'd say it is not the norm to need such a roll--to be sure a few times it will come up and give the touch-attack / saving-throw casters a chance to shine, but if every boss at low levels is at the highest of its AC range, that's pretty nasty of the GM.

 

[IanB]

...but if every boss at low levels is at the highest of its AC range, that's pretty nasty of the GM.

Either that, or he's running a Paizo adventure!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Either that, or he's running a Paizo adventure!

Let's see, in Shackled City, admittedly that boss at the end of Life's Bazaar, Khasmogen or however its spelled (I played it so I only heard it aloud) had massive massive AC, but by then we were over level 1. Our poor Ranger (our only full-BAB type) only hit because my Archivist's entire goal in life is to put up massive buffs, and thanks to Nature's Archivist and the fact that he was ::SPOILER ALERT::

Spoiler

Type Giant because of the Half-Troll template

::/SPOILER:: , I got up I think a +2 to hit in addition to Bless and Magic Weapon. However, the boss of Drakhthar's Way had pretty easy AC to hit (and he had no chance after my Archivist forced everyone to buy silver weapons on which she then cast Magic Weapon), and none of the big guys in Flood Season were hard to hit, although they did put a serious hurt on us. That's as far as I got, though.