Whirlwind and sneak attacks

[CRGreathouse]

So he would get to attack the 2nd guard if he had "combat reflexes"?

He would get "one" extra attack with sneak attack damage and that attack would be with his primary weapon now with out any two weapon fighting modifiers because he is only attacking with his primary weapon.

I'm sorry, what does Combat Reflexes have to do with it?

If you're surrounded by 8 flat-footed foes (very hard to do!) and Whirlwind Attack them all, you get sneak attack damage. If they're not flat-foot but they're flanked, you still get sneak attack damage. If some are flanked, you only get the sneak attack against those.

 

[Starfox]

Regardless, Cleave definitely doesn't allow for multiple uses of the sneak attack ability. No cleave attack will ever recieve bonus damage from sneak attack.

Why?

 

[Zhure]

Maybe this will clear it up.

The Rogue has Whirlwind attack and catches two guards flat-footed. He takes a full-attack action to WWA both guards. Since they are flat-footed, they both get sneak-attacked. This can't be done in a surprise round, as a surprise round is a partial action only (unless the Rogue is also a Weapon Master).

If the Rogue has a second weapon, i.e., two-weapon fighting, he gets one additional attack, which will also be a Sneak Attack.

If the guards have Combat Reflexes, it makes no difference, since they are still flat-footed. The Rogue isn't doing anything to provoke an AoO, so they won't get an AoO on the Rogue in any event.

If one of the targets dies from the Rogue's attack, he gets a Cleave on the other one. Since the second target is still flat-footed, this cleave attack is still a Sneak Attack.

That clear it up?

Of course, we're talking about a Rogue with a lot of Feats, so he's high level. We're also talking about two guards that don't have Uncanny Dodge, as that will change the dynamic as well.

Greg

 

[Darklone]

TWF, WWA, Cleave and sneak attacks

Ok. If you whirlwind those two guards fighting twohanded (hidden weapons or quickdraw?) it's as follows:
First you have to win the initiative since you only got a partial surprise action. No WWA then. Lets assume you walk to them in your surprise round and draw your weapons. Then you win initiative (if not, no sneak attacks at all since you cannot flank them alone).

- First you attack with your whirlwind attack -2 to hit (for two weapon fighting) the guard no 1. With sneak attack damage since he's flatfooted (in case he has no uncanny dodge)
- If he falls, you cleave with sneak attack damage into the next one at the same to hit modifiers.
- If he does not fall, your whirlwind on guard no 2 is next. With sneak attack since he is still flatfooted...
- If he does not fall you get the additional attack with your off hand weapon at him (plus sneak attack damage).

Due to official wording: Whirlwind attacks with two weapons give you one attack at each opponent in range 5ft plus one additional attack at one target with the offhand weapon.


Sorry for doubleanswering with Zhure, he posted a few second earlier.

 

[Starfox]

Thanks Darklone and Zhure. That's just the way I interpret things.

What I was saying before is that a much more common situation is likely to be a rogue with Cleave flanking two people, killing the first and cleaving into the second, using sneak attack against both. After all, this combo requires only two feats and Str 13+ (along with some clever positioning). This has nothing to do with Whirlwind attack.

Whatisitgoodfor said Cleave could never work with Sneak Attack; I was wondering if there was a ruling somewhere that I had missed.

Sorry if I am pedantic; I've been misinterpreted a lot in various discussions lately.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

With Cleave, you get to make a second attack roll against a different opponent using the same attack. Its the same attack because it specifically states that all modifiers from the original attack still apply.

IMO, this means that it falls under the same category as Shurikens or emergy missle spells, in that all of these allow multiple attack rolls with one attack.

The sage has clarified that when you are allowed multiple attack rolls with one attack, you can only apply extra damage from sources such as sneak attack, weapon specialization, and favored enemy to the first attack roll. The reasoning behind this is that for the extra attacks you don't have enough time to properly aim the attack, which is where the extra damage comes from.

 

[TOWER]

With Cleave, you get to make a second attack roll against a different opponent using the same attack. Its the same attack because it specifically states that all modifiers from the original attack still apply.

IMO, this means that it falls under the same category as Shurikens or emergy missle spells, in that all of these allow multiple attack rolls with one attack.

The sage has clarified that when you are allowed multiple attack rolls with one attack, you can only apply extra damage from sources such as sneak attack, weapon specialization, and favored enemy to the first attack roll. The reasoning behind this is that for the extra attacks you don't have enough time to properly aim the attack, which is where the extra damage comes from.

But Cleave is an extra attack, not part of another attack. Thus it gets power attack, weapon specialization, STR and all the other bonuses that you would normally get with an attack.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

With Cleave, you get to make a second attack roll against a different opponent using the same attack. Its the same attack because it specifically states that all modifiers from the original attack still apply.

Does that mean true strike would apply to both? What if he is flanking the person that goes down but not the person who get's cleaved into? Does that give him +2 to hit the second guy, even if he's not being flanked?

I think that line in the description of cleave would make more sense if it were replaced with "at the same base attack bonus."

--Mean Spikey

 

[Crothian]

Ya, Cleave needs to be reworded. And then you can see what circumtances of the first attack and the cleave attack are the same and get additional bonuses to attack that way.