Lurks-no-More
First Post
It's new and thus bad, unlike Otiluke etc. That's the only consistent explanation I have come up for the endless complaining.TwinBahamut said:
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
White Raven Onslaught Revision
- Thread starter TheLordWinter
- Start date
hong said:
Actually, it inspires me to think "Why do the folks at WOTC insist on putting their pet campaign organizations in a generic rules set?" Bigby, Tensor, et al have the excuse of "No one knew any better at the time". To do it today...well, it's akin to 3e featuring feats named 'Drizzt's Slashing Assault', or spells like 'Elminsters Cunning Seduction'.
Yes, it is.
Unless you can tell me what 'White Raven' has to do with 'Command and Leadership'. Even animal-named kung fu styles generally describe their inspiration and look, and phrases like "Strong as a bull" or "graceful as a cat" are common English idioms. But I've never heard "As tactical as a white raven" in my life, nor in my studies of heraldry has there been any particular symbolism associated with white ravens (I admit I might be missing one somewhere, there's a LOT of heraldic lore), etc. It's something someone rolled up. ("Lessee....18....that's white...and roll on 'Animal'....14...that's 'Raven'.")
OK, in the interests of fairness, there is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner
So it's a common battle symbol in Northern European lore. And maybe the designer was referencing that. But to use a Hongism, it's so out of the Zeitgeist that it's a failure -- it doesn't mean anything to most people, it has no current resonance. Also, according to lore (and the song I remembered which got me to look this up in the first place), whoever bears the banner dies. So, if one goes by that, what 'White Raven' means to me is self-sacrifice and granting luck to others at the cost of one's own good fortune -- probably not the designer's intent. That's what it would 'inspire' in my imagination -- and it doesn't match the rules.
In any event, the fact the only way one can justify the term is by pointing to that historical use goes back to my "carrying cultural baggage" argument -- akin to giving all fight feats "martial arts" names and then saying that your Medieval France themed culture had knights who used 'Leap Of The Seven Golden Monkeys' and 'Stance Of The Crouching Fox'.
Yup, but there's been no Bigby for the past 8, either. I guess I'm a failure as a DM, because I ignored someone else's unnecessary flavor text.
Lizard said:
Nothing wrong with those. Well, except that anything named after Driz'zt and Elminster fail by definition, but these are specific exceptions to the rule.
No it isn't.
A name does not have to be utilitarian to be inspiring. The inspiration is in the possibilities that a school named "White Raven" offers. The theme of that school is then taken from the existing abilities.
Ravens are generally associated with intelligence, cunning and subtlety. It really is as simple as that. If you persist in thinking too hard about fantasy, that's your problem.
Nobody said anything about medieval France.
And you can continue ignoring someone else's unnecessary flavour text. Meanwhile, other people will be leveraging it to great effect, and thus getting value for money.
TheLordWinter
First Post
Sheesh - this really did stir up a nest of bees. So, a few thoughts:
Lizard, you seem really quite cross with the name and appear to think it too evocative of a wuxia feeling from Hong Kong cinema, in which a martial arts move doesn't actually have to make sense. If I may then, perhaps a name change could help you connect better with the power, particularly if your game is set in a setting themed around Medieval France.
While still following the colour/animal theme, how would you feel about Argent Lion Onslaught? I must admit I'm unfamiliar with heraldry, but the lion has long been not only a symbol of power and authority but also cunning and leadership. White and argent were argued to be interchangeable on heraldic tinctures (or so tells me Wikipedia) but argent was meant to symbolize silver, heavenly bodies and the moon. In this regard the argent symbolism functions based around the idea that the Warlord's tactics fit into the background: he himself doesn't appear to be doing much but his actions are necessary, just like the pull of the moon creating the tides, to survive on the field of battle.
You can then present the Argent Lion school within your world as a place where aspiring military leaders train and base it around the Master Tactician... Tactic (I lack a better word). The school could be a well known place where the finest men and women come to be trained in military greatness, and their standard could be a silver lion on a field of red (representing the mastery of military tactics and leadership over the savagery of war).
Hope that helps a bit.
Lizard, you seem really quite cross with the name and appear to think it too evocative of a wuxia feeling from Hong Kong cinema, in which a martial arts move doesn't actually have to make sense. If I may then, perhaps a name change could help you connect better with the power, particularly if your game is set in a setting themed around Medieval France.
While still following the colour/animal theme, how would you feel about Argent Lion Onslaught? I must admit I'm unfamiliar with heraldry, but the lion has long been not only a symbol of power and authority but also cunning and leadership. White and argent were argued to be interchangeable on heraldic tinctures (or so tells me Wikipedia) but argent was meant to symbolize silver, heavenly bodies and the moon. In this regard the argent symbolism functions based around the idea that the Warlord's tactics fit into the background: he himself doesn't appear to be doing much but his actions are necessary, just like the pull of the moon creating the tides, to survive on the field of battle.
You can then present the Argent Lion school within your world as a place where aspiring military leaders train and base it around the Master Tactician... Tactic (I lack a better word). The school could be a well known place where the finest men and women come to be trained in military greatness, and their standard could be a silver lion on a field of red (representing the mastery of military tactics and leadership over the savagery of war).
Hope that helps a bit.
Kishin said:
Yes, the name matters, insofar as poorly chosen names make the learning curve for the system more steep. I object to these sorts of names because they are poor mnemonics. I would prefer a bland name that actually has something reasonable relation to what the ability does one that has colorful, but meaningless, adjectives.
There is a reason why skill names are things like "Craft", "Move Silently" and so forth - when the players are communicating at the table, it is clear what everyone is trying to do. That doesn't happen when you tell your fellow players "I'll White Raven Onslaught!" There is nothing in "White Raven Onslaught" that clearly tells you what the darned thing is supposed to do, other than be an attack. That's not good.
Very simply - these names are new, opaque jargon, and making up jargon for the sake of making up jargon is not a good idea.
Belphanior
First Post
Umbran said:
Referencing the Bo9S legacy is hardly "new" right now. It's from 2006.
I chalk this up to lack of familiarity with the new names. I doubt people intuitively grasp - by name alone - the function of Rope Trick, Gentle Repose, or Sepia Snake Sigil. Or grasp the difference between Grease and Lubrucation. Or Magic Jar; really, who wants to enchant a pot of jam?
I realize this is all up to personal preference but I for one get so terribly bored by D&D's blandly functional names it's almost nauseating. Remove this. Remove that. Protection from something or other. Hooray for purely descriptive names in fantasy that sound as exciting as the buttons on my VCR's remote.
Now mind you, games like Exalted went a little too far in the opposite direction. I can appreciate Ghost-Eating Technique (it's like having a ghost-touch weapon), Speech Without Words (it's like Rary's Telepathic Bond), and even Forgotten Earth (it's like the Jump spell). But it's overboard when you have Cash And Murder Games or Thrashing Carp Serenade (can you guess what those do?).
Similar Threads
