White Wolfs pay to play deal...

[Corinth]

Firstly, I think it's highly objectionable and downright stupid to try to charge people for the privelege of playing in an RPG that you run. It is SO not the point that it's staggering. As a correlation I find it nearly as stupid to run D&D COMPETITIVELY at a convention as a general rule. How can you compete (and why would you want to try) at a game that BY DESIGN has no way to win much less keep score?

Charging a modest fee is SOP in the LARP community, and that fee is there to cover expenses of any kind: site rental, provision of food/drink/props, paying for required personnel (happens for my LARP) to be on site, parking provisions, etc. Some call it "donations" or "tips", but that doesn't matter: money changes hands, so the license applies. The folks that run LARPs do it to defray the costs; no one's making a dime, let alone a living. Thankfully my LARP will be done by this time tomorrow; I won't have to ignore this stupidity, which I shall counsel the One World By Night and other independant WoD LARPs around my area to do.

 

[delericho]

This is extremely unwise on the part of White Wolf. Their website claims that they're not going to use this for oversight of games. They also claim there are a small number of key rules that need to be followed (no minors, no public intoxication, nothing illegal), beyond which anything goes.

Which means that you could apply for the license, organise an event, or events, and proceed to offend everyone in sight. Then, when there are complaints, you can refer the complaints to White Wolf, who have officially sanctioned your "game".

Not to mention the problems that they'll face the first time someone actually is injured at one of their officially sanctioned games.

(And remember, this is a game where you take on the persona of a blood-drinking creature of the night. If I were publishing such a game, I think I would probably want to stay as far as possible away from offering "official sanction" to people who organise events using the game, to minimise the 'idiot factor' on my company.)

 

[reveal]

Which means that you could apply for the license, organise an event, or events, and proceed to offend everyone in sight. Then, when there are complaints, you can refer the complaints to White Wolf, who have officially sanctioned your "game".

I'm sure that in the license somewhere it will state that the game has been officially sanction by WW but they take no responsibility for the actions of the players if they, the players, don't follow the rules laid out before them.

 

[delericho]

I'm sure that in the license somewhere it will state that the game has been officially sanction by WW but they take no responsibility for the actions of the players if they, the players, don't follow the rules laid out before them.

Sure, but how tight are those rules? How much harm can a group do while remaining just within those rules? And, further, if a concerned parent deems that their child has been harmed by indirect exposure to the events of an "officially sanctioned" LARP, and elects to sue the organisers and White Wolf, will White Wolf be able to escape the litigation by claiming they had no responsibility for the actions of the players when they did not observe those same actions?

Likewise, with the best will in the world, it is impossible for any set of rules to be written that will guarantee the safety of all involved. If an accident does occur at an "officially sanctioned" LARP, are White Wolf then not opening themselves up for being sued by those affected?

 

[reveal]

Sure, but how tight are those rules? How much harm can a group do while remaining just within those rules? And, further, if a concerned parent deems that their child has been harmed by indirect exposure to the events of an "officially sanctioned" LARP, and elects to sue the organisers and White Wolf, will White Wolf be able to escape the litigation by claiming they had no responsibility for the actions of the players when they did not observe those same actions?

Likewise, with the best will in the world, it is impossible for any set of rules to be written that will guarantee the safety of all involved. If an accident does occur at an "officially sanctioned" LARP, are White Wolf then not opening themselves up for being sued by those affected?

I'm not saying it won't, I'm just saying that WW can point to a legal, binding contract and say "We are not responsible and you signed it knowing this."

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Some observations.

1. Forcing people to pay you 20 bucks a year so everyone can chip in for pizza, just p****** people off. Big Time. White Wolf has a history of doin this.

2. People they think are making money off them without giving them a cut, really P******* off WW. They have a history of going after people theyare P****** off at.

3. This system is un-workable as is. Using a web-based registration? For everyone? I don't know what genius at WW thought this one up. By he didn't think it all the way through.

4. Apperently you can have a 'trial' membership in the Camerilla for a month before you have to pay. They say for a one shot, you can just use the 'Trial' membership. Or, you can get a free e-mail address, make up an adress & keep milking the trial membership whenever you need it.

5. The only reason I can come up to do this is to protect yourself from legal responsibility. Have a clause in the agreement that says you agree to do X & that you absolve WW of any responsibilty should you be injured while Larping. Thus is some kid dies, you can say either "He didn't sign the agreement, so he was acting against the rules of our company" or "See! Right here! He signed this saying we aren't resposible if he winds up injured or killed." So, if it's just a legal 'cover our butts in this day & age'...Fine. Got no problems (not like I Larp anyway). But.

IF you think I should cut you a check jsut because everybody chipped in for pizza. Bite me. I don't fill out a Check to Bill Gates when I do a training session for MS-Office, I ain't writing one to WW because we get the munchies.

 

[painandgreed]

The problem with Achilli (whose work I used to like) is that he will strike at any "insult" real or imaginary. He will piss on fans in the most egotistical manner possible, and has the habit of answering around an issue with insults and just wrong information. If you ask a question he doesn't like, he'll flame you and yell and rant, but doesn't address the question most of the time.

Let's put him and Kevin Siembieda in the same room together and see if they combust.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

As far as I can tell.

If you take a random White Wolf Fan (like one who posts on their boards) and one of any number of 'creative' talents at WW and......

Told the fan: "We have tied an electrical device to WW Person's Left Testicle. If you push this button it will shock him. However, you have the same device strapped to your left testicle, so you will be shocked as well."

Told WW person: "We have tied an electrical device to Fan's Right Testicle. If you push this button it will shock him. However, you have the same device strapped to your Right testicle, so you will be shocked as well."

The city of Atlanta would have to bring additional generators on line to make up for the sudden drain of electrical energy.

In other words: White Wolf & their fans seem to have an intense hatred for each other that manifest in thier desire to harm each other even when to their own expense.

 

[mcrow]

Let's put him and Kevin Siembieda in the same room together and see if they combust.

At least Kevin has the common sense to stay out of public forums for the most part. A friend of mine (Bill) met Kevin @ GAMMA (IIRC) and he said KS was one the coolest publishers he met while he was there. He asked Bill to autograph a copy of the RPG that he just released and gave him a signed copy of one of his in return. They had a real good coversation and Bill said he had heard of all the stuff KS was accused of but after meeting him couldn't believe it.

 

[SteveC]

Sigh.
There is something that happens every once and a while with gaming companies that leaves me scratching my head in wonder at the sheer outlandishness of it all. This is one of those things.

There are so many problems with this new policy that I don’t know where to begin. Let me tackle it this way: I thing that White Wolf has gotten some amazingly bad legal advice about this issue. They seem to feel that organizing play in this way will protect them legally, but I have to say that it will actually make things much worse for them.

I am not a lawyer, but an organization like this puts a big bull’s-eye on White Wolf. Unless they are going to create a huge organization to monitor all of the registered LARPs on an ongoing basis, they’re going to have no idea what’s going on with them. Once there is a problem, there is a direct group with deep pockets to go after. After all, if there is an accident and an injury, lawyers go after the money. They most likely will not sue the LARP group or its organizers because they’re poor, and as Steve Dallas said over 20 years ago, never sue poor people. What they do have is a big target to sue now. While White Wolf could previously have said “hey, we make the product, we’re not responsible for what people do with it,” they now have licensed and approved groups who are supposedly following a charter that says they’re all good people and are acting responsibly. How exactly are they going to determine whether groups are following the charter? Odds are, they’re going to do nothing beyond listen to reports. Oh, and now there has to be a person or people whose job it is to read those reports and decide what to do with them! “What! You’re kicking me out of the group! I can't play in ANY LARPS with the WoD rules any more? That’s not fair, see my lawyer!”
This does not even go into the fundamental notion of whether or not White Wolf has any legal ground to even make these demands in the first place, which they do not. Again, I’m not a lawyer, but I’m really wondering what is the gain that is expected to come out of all of this? What are they expecting to get from this? I’m really not one to talk about big game companies as being “the man,” I think the very notion is ludicrous, but this sounds like a decision from a lawyer who really doesn’t know anything about the industry or what a RPG or LARP is.

Just my two cents…

--Steve