Whither Extend Spell in 3.5?

[Nightfall]

Perhaps days becomes weeks. Would make the most sense to me.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Not really. There's a very narrow window of use for the new 3.5e stat buffs (if there's any at all--my calculations indicate that bless, mage armor, protection from evil, and shield of faith will typically be more effective at increasing or reducing damage which makes one wonder how to justify the 2nd level slot). They begin to be available at level 3 at which point they can't be extended. Level 5 is the earliest that they can be extended and, at that point, it's only useful in the rare group of dungeons that are longer than 5 minutes and shorter than 10. By level 6, characters will start to accumulate stat buffing items (at least in 3.5e where such items will be far more desirable) thus dramatically reducing the of extended stat buff spells in general; if characters don't have such items by level 8, something's wrong.

So, the window of usefulness for stat buffs in general (if it exists at all; I don't think it does) is level 3-8. That makes the window of usefulness for extended stat buffs 5-8. At the low end of those levels, 3rd level slots are precious commodities as they will form the spellcaster's highest level spells. At the high end of those levels, stat buff items become common and 3rd level spell slots are still the bulk of a sor/wiz's offensive spells and a significant portion of a cleric's spells (at best, an 8th level cleric might have 4 4th level spells, some of which are probably committed to spells like Restoration or Greater Magic Weapon so 3rd level spells will still see regular combat use).

That doesn't leave much of a window where PCs both have the ability to cast extended statbuffs and where their effect could possibly justify their opportunity cost.

Not quite. As i said, the big oppurtunity cost these new buff spells impose is on between-combat buffing and healing. Extend spell grants twice as many rounds. Those rounds can now safely be used for such activities. And as I said, I think Big/Huge dungeons are somewhat rare and especailly for the largest, most partys will tend to rest. If such a large dungeon is actually a series of small, tightly packed dungeons (in terms of monsters), such as Return to the Temple, then extend still comes in handy. But more likely, the larger set of dungeons one encounters in modules are closer to 10-20 minutes, because of limitation in module map space. Extended buffs could still see some use in those.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It would make sense but it would be ugly.

2nd level Endure elements at 1 week/level?!?
9th level Mind Blank at 1 week/level?!?

And if they still allow stacking metamagic, it would be hideous. A 9th level Divine Power or Improved Invisibility would last one week/level and an 8th level one would last 1 day/level (rounds-min, min-10 min, 10 min-hour, hour-day, day-week). A Tenser's Transformation could potentially last all day (although that would be quite risky for the wizard).

And, of course, one would have to see the possibilities for a mutliply extended Nondetection--1 year/level as a 7th level spell. (assuming week-month, and month-year progressions).

Category increases make sense until durations arrive in the hour category. After that, any increase beyond x2/level will yield hideous results.

Perhaps days becomes weeks. Would make the most sense to me.

 

[ruleslawyer]

It would make sense but it would be ugly.

2nd level Endure elements at 1 week/level?!?
9th level Mind Blank at 1 week/level?!?

1 week flat for both of these, actually.

I agree regarding stacking Extend, though. Bad bad bad.

 

[jasamcarl]

Not really. There's a very narrow window of use for the new 3.5e stat buffs (if there's any at all--my calculations indicate that bless, mage armor, protection from evil, and shield of faith will typically be more effective at increasing or reducing damage which makes one wonder how to justify the 2nd level slot). They begin to be available at level 3 at which point they can't be extended. Level 5 is the earliest that they can be extended and, at that point, it's only useful in the rare group of dungeons that are longer than 5 minutes and shorter than 10. By level 6, characters will start to accumulate stat buffing items (at least in 3.5e where such items will be far more desirable) thus dramatically reducing the of extended stat buff spells in general; if characters don't have such items by level 8, something's wrong.

So, the window of usefulness for stat buffs in general (if it exists at all; I don't think it does) is level 3-8. That makes the window of usefulness for extended stat buffs 5-8. At the low end of those levels, 3rd level slots are precious commodities as they will form the spellcaster's highest level spells. At the high end of those levels, stat buff items become common and 3rd level spell slots are still the bulk of a sor/wiz's offensive spells and a significant portion of a cleric's spells (at best, an 8th level cleric might have 4 4th level spells, some of which are probably committed to spells like Restoration or Greater Magic Weapon so 3rd level spells will still see regular combat use).

That doesn't leave much of a window where PCs both have the ability to cast extended statbuffs and where their effect could possibly justify their opportunity cost.

I disagree. As one goes into the higher levels, low level damage dealing spells (specifically 3rd level here) become significantly less valuable, because high monster dcs and hp makes high-level spells a neccessity to inflict any damage. The oppurtunity cost is actually very limited, because, in my experience, past 10th level, those slots start to go to waste; buff spells have little in-combat oppurtunity cost. The payoff of rounds one gets from extending those spells helps at this point for those dungeons that take 20 min to a half hour to complete. The gold/xp one spends on those items (the cost of which suppossedly increases in 3.5), being finite resources (gold/level), is much more valuable than a low-level slot (which is limited only by time). That gold could easily go to pay for more potent items, and in this way gp stacks.

As to the value of stat buffs versus the 1st level spells you named, almost all of their value comes in defence, which is inherently more passive than the attack/damage bonus that comes from Bull's Strength. All monsters have hp and an AC to overcome, while not all monsters use a melee attacks or spells that require reflex saves., especially as levels rise and spell-like abilities become more common. Thus, BS remains valuable through out a spree of levels.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Two things:

(the cost of which suppossedly increases in 3.5)

Where does this information come from? I've seen someone reference Piratecat as a source for it but I've only see him refer to an increased cost for skill bonus items (a dramatically different group of items).

As to the value of stat buffs versus the 1st level spells you named, almost all of their value comes in defence, which is inherently more passive than the attack/damage bonus that comes from Bull's Strength. All monsters have hp and an AC to overcome, while not all monsters use a melee attacks or spells that require reflex saves., especially as levels rise and spell-like abilities become more common. Thus, BS remains valuable through out a spree of levels.

That doesn't account for Bless but at high levels, it would be easy to have both active at once. However, I suspect that the benefits of 3.5e haste or prayer in a single battle would probably outweigh the benefits of bull's strength in 2. And, at least, IME even at 11th level (when multiple +4 stat boosters are easily available to PCs) 3rd level slots are still a very limited commodity. More signficantly, however, the benefit of items (always on and therefore largely not dispellable, active in surprise situations, and potentially granting bonusses of +6) are such that, even in 3e most non-spellcasting characters who can afford one are better off with a +4 item than a spell. In 3.5e, I don't expect that it will be practical to duplicate the always on effect of an item with spells as it is in 3e so I would anticipate that such items are bought sooner rather than later.

 

[Thorntangle]

It's still useful as a prereq for Persistent Spell, so I bet people still take it.

 

[Zappo]

I have more issues with Persistent Spell right now. Extending the duration to 24 hours flat means that it is IMO very underpowered for hour/level spells and very overpowered for round/level spells. Persistant Haste is a real pain, luckily at least Haste is getting changed, but the basic problem remains.

 

[Davelozzi]

By level 6, characters will start to accumulate stat buffing items (at least in 3.5e where such items will be far more desirable) thus dramatically reducing the of extended stat buff spells in general; if characters don't have such items by level 8, something's wrong.

Well, that's an awfully broad generalization. I certainly won't consider something to be wrong in my campaign when that has happened yet.

 

[DonAdam]

Far and away the best use that I've seen for Extend Spell is Rope Trick.

Man, that spell is haus.