Who are Howard and Leiber?

[davidschwartznz]

Plus, if you run with this 1% assumption, then the likelyhood of any adventuring group coming together becomes very, very small. I'm no math wiz, but, even I know that the chances of 6 people who all come from 1% of the population, coming together in the same place and the same time AND all having similar enough outlooks to want to work together is pretty bloody slight.

Haven't you just described a gaming group?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Haven't you just described a gaming group?

That was, in fact, his point.

 

[Hussar]

You're comparing not apples and oranges, but rather poker and blackjack. The writers use all of the same tools, but the rules under which they must operate are VERY different.

Howard's stuff is clearly pulp influenced (no big surprise there!), which tended towards excruciatingly descriptive details on the surroundings and violence. Protagonists are monolithic, unchanging, iconic ideals, their worldviews very black and white, even if they walk along the grey boundaries. Their conflicts are easily defined. The heroes are to be admired and emulated...maybe even worshipped. We identify with them because we wish we could BE them.

Meanwhile Lackey and the others' work show more modern influences, especially the snarky Pratchett. They're more interested in character development and internal states than earlier writers. Cherryh spends equal time writing sci fi and fantasy, and it shows. Ditto Donaldson. The characters are often regular people thrust into unusual situations. We identify with them because we ARE them. Their worldviews are all shades of grey, their conflicts involve sliding scales of morality.

I'll agree with that 100%. That's pretty much been my point from the beginning. However, others here are trying to argue that the older writers have defined the genre and any deviation from that basic definition is somehow inferior. Or at least, that's how I've interpreted what they've said.

I would, in no way try to argue that "golden age" fantasy is any better or worse than modern fantasy. Saying that it's all mindless drivel a la Steel or Sheldon ignores the very excellent work that's being done recently. Tad Williams creates a fantasy setting in the Dragonbone Chair series that compares favourably in depth and style with anyone's in the business. I am certainly not going to write off everyone who's writing after 1972 simply because it's "boring" or "derivative". That's a completely unsupportable arguement and hyperbole to boot.

Let's face it, prior to 1970, fantasy was a tiny little genre read by very few people (with a couple of exceptions). After the release and giant popularity of DnD, fantasy suddenly becomes a major player. Those of us old enough to remember, can remember going into a bookstore, and, if they even had a fantasy section, it was a single shelf tucked into the back of the store. By the mid 80's, the fantasy sections of the larger bookstores rivalled any other section in the store. It can be argued that it's simple coincidence, but, I'm not buying it. DnD drove fantasy into the bookstores and onto the bookshelves. Take a look at the original Thieves World anthologies. Prior to their release, every fantasy anthology was a giant black hole of lost profits. Thieves World not only made money, it made a LOT of money. Now, who was buying those books in 1981? Was it the standard book buyer who had never bought fantasy books before and suddenly decided that fantasy looked like a good thing? Or was it the guy who just got into DnD, like the hundreds of thousands like him, looking for stories that looked and felt like a DND game?

 

[Turjan]

Cherryh spends equal time writing sci fi and fantasy, and it shows.

Hmm, memories ! I always had a soft spot for her science fantasy, although I only know it in translations. I've got still quite a lot of her science fiction stuff on my shelves. The last one is "Downbelow Station", I think.

 

[Turjan]

After the release and giant popularity of DnD, fantasy suddenly becomes a major player. Those of us old enough to remember, can remember going into a bookstore, and, if they even had a fantasy section, it was a single shelf tucked into the back of the store. By the mid 80's, the fantasy sections of the larger bookstores rivalled any other section in the store. It can be argued that it's simple coincidence, but, I'm not buying it. DnD drove fantasy into the bookstores and onto the bookshelves.

I'm not convinced. I come from a country where D&D was mostly unknown among teenagers and where it never was one of the major players in the RPG market before the advent of Baldurs Gate. At least there, the fantasy boom didn't owe anything to D&D, except maybe the translated originals from the US. I will not exclude, though, that things went below my radar. I still have to touch a single Drizzt novel.

 

[sword-dancer]

Howard's stuff is clearly pulp influenced (no big surprise there!), which tended towards excruciatingly descriptive details on the surroundings and violence. Protagonists are monolithic, unchanging, iconic ideals, their worldviews very black and white, even if they walk along the grey boundaries. .

I doubt you`ve read the original Conan stories.
Conan develops himself over the road of his life, but these pulp Characters Conan, Kull, Elric... live whenall is said andcounted by their own rules, they`re not angst ridden, they don`t believe in justifying what they do.
This Axe is my Scepter, said Kull after he smashed the law which forbidds him to do what he seemed right.
Like it or like it not, i don`t care, if you don´t want me to do it so try it, take my crown

 

[Hussar]

Having read the original Conan stories many times, I'd say that DannyA has it nailed pretty well. Regardless of what Conan is doing at the time - robbing a house, leading a Turanian charge, running a kingdom, he's pretty much the same character. He doesn't change. He's iconic and larger than life. His character is static and that's probably a major part of its appeal.

Turjan, I would argue that the reason those stories made it into translation is due to the fact that they became so popular in the States. Without that popularity, publishers would be unwilling to translate them into other languages. We see this with movies all the time. Despite being crap many times, Hollywood movies get translated into pretty much every language on the planet. How many Korean movies have you seen lately?

 

[tetsujin28]

Might I perhaps suggest that the fact that you point to a 25 year old module is pretty much exactly what I said. If you published White Plume Mountain now, I highly doubt it would receive the reception it got back then.

Probably true. It would appeal to that segment of the market that enjoys more free-wheeling adventures, but not to the children of the '90s with their plot-based orientation.

 

[tetsujin28]

Hmm, memories ! I always had a soft spot for her science fantasy, although I only know it in translations. I've got still quite a lot of her science fiction stuff on my shelves. The last one is "Downbelow Station", I think.

Cherryh's fantasy/sf stuff is really under-rated.

 

[Turjan]

Cherryh's fantasy/sf stuff is really under-rated.

Yes, some of her books are really good, even without my personal nostalgia factor .