Who are Howard and Leiber?

[MerricB]

What do you think?

I think you raise a very interesting point. I'm trying to think of counterexamples from older fiction or mythology.

Certainly, John Carter (of ERB's Barsoom books) has superior physical and fighting abilities, but they're a different thing from actually having magical abilities.

I'm just trying to think of examples from Celtic mythology where the magic-worker is the central point of the tale, rather than someone being aided by magic; c.f. Arthur and Merlin.

Cheers!

 

[The Shaman]

I seem to have read something about this elsewhere - ah, here it is...

The language and iconography of fantasy has changed, and the game has attempted to keep up with the fanbase.

I don't think that's a bad thing - genres should grow and change. It does mean that I've lost interest in the fantasy tropes of D&D...

I agree that D&D is informed by a new generation of fantasists, a generation that has taken a more self-aware view of fantasy, and that the fantastic genre has been influenced by anime and wuxia as readily as Bullfinche's Mythology or The Golden Bough.

Doesn't mean I have to like it.

The works of Howard and Leiber are important, and have done much - and are doing much - for fantasy even now. However, they are not the entirity of fantasy, and it is now the time of their successors, to go to new places that they did not dream.

The game can, and will, and I believe should reflect the current state of the sub-culture to reach its audience - however, what is popular now isn't to my taste much of the time, so it also means that a game like D&D which attempts to capture that contemporary state of fantasy loses its appeal for someone like me. Feats that bring wire-fu stunt action into the game, manga-influenced art styles, the all-encompassing (and to my mind bland and unfocused) generic blending of fantasy tropes - for these reasons I've moved on to other game systems.

It really has nothing to do with 3e D&D in a sense - I can (and I have) created a Tolkeinesque 3.0 campaign, by tweaking the ruleset to meet my needs. The larger problem as I see it, and one that I have experienced as a player, is that the population of gamers out there has an expectation about core D&D that I as a GM have no intention of meeting. IMX most gamers expect prestige classes and item creation feats and harmless technological magic and monster races, because that's what the current iteration of the game offers them. Simply put, they're not buying what I'm selling: magic as rare and dangerous, few monsters (and no monster PCs), limits on access to prestige classes, &c.

On the other hand, if I use a game like Castles and Crusades to bring my fantasy vision to life, I'm more likely to attract players with a like mindset, because the tropes of the game are geared to a different style of play, a different expectation of magic and classes, than a player expecting core D&D. In this way I can play the game I want to play with like-minded gamers. In the final analysis, what D&D has become is irrelevant to me.

So I ignore Eddings and Feist and Jordan and Lackey and dig deep into Leiber and Howard and Tolkien and LeGuin for my fantasy tropes. I plan my Modern Africa game around Burroughs and Haggard and Cutliffe Hyne and Wren, not Michael Crichton's Congo or Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life. About the only genre that finds me siding with more contemporary artists is superheroes: if I run a supers game again, it will be heavily influenced by Kurt Busiek's Astro City.

Does this limit me? Perhaps. Does it put me behind the times? Probably. Do I care? No, not deeply. This is all for fun, and I like what I like.

 

[MerricB]

Does this limit me?

Only in the sense that you're not trying to do everything at once.

Limits are important for creativity. They provide focus, and - when everything is said - just playing in a fantasy world is a limiting experience (compared to the entirity of literature!)

Incidentally, you brought up "Bullfinch's Mythology." Do you know what the purpose of that was? To remind the readers of its day of the mythological stories that underpinned many allusions in poetry and literature.

I have a feeling that today the creative mythology is more alive than it has ever been, and the retellings of older mythologies (by Moorcook, MZB, Dan Simmons and others) keeps them relevant to the new generation.

Cheers!

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I appreciate Howard, Leiber, Moorcock, etc because they aren't based on current popular culture. As much as I enjoy current authors like Jordan, Feist, Eddings, and even Rawlings, the stories they tell aren't anything that I couldn't think up on my own. Magic, as mentioned in the very inciteful post above, resembles technology and most of the characters act either like 20th century Americans or stereotypes held by 20C Americans. The "classic" authors, in contrast, open my eyes to stories characters, and cultures that I would never imagine on my own. As an example, I would never come up with anything like the Elric saga left to my own devices.

MB has a legitimate point that D&D is is most accesible if it is based on the fantasy fiction of the last few years. Basing it on Final Fantasy would probably work even better. However in the interest of providing a gaming experience far different than modern life, which is my preference, I would like to see games more grounded in "classic" fantasy.

 

[Steel_Wind]

While they may not have read Howard - they are probably familiar with Conan as a character from film and TV and to a lesser extent, comics. Conan long ago moved into mainstream popular culture. They'll get by on what they know of him. The feel of Conan the Destroyer comes pretty close to iconic D&D.

I think Vance can be ignored and one's appreciation of D&D will not actually suffer in the slightest.

Lieber, however... that strikes pretty close to the heart. Especially with respect to thieves and the entire concept of a thieves guild and a city adventure in D&D. Lieber in some ways is as close to "gaming fiction" as we had before TSR decided it needed to commission it

We all need to sing the praises of Ill Met in Lankhmar more. (Though - do remember, Lieber has what may be perceived to be a somewhat sexist approach to his tales when read by a female audience).

With respect to Harry Potter - the obvious solution to this is to license and market a Harry Potter RPG. It is an obvious "in" on the market. The fact that we have not seen a Harry Potter RPG or CCG suggests to me that JK Rowling is not a fan of the genre and has said "no". (Alternatively - the price for her saying "yes" is deemed to be too high)

A Harry Potter RPG using basic D&D mechanics would be the obvious "in" with an entire generation of players...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Rowling, I believe, has turned down making a Potter RPG because she doesn't want anyone taking the roles of her characters. And, they've offered lots of money. Whether you agree with her decision (just how many LJ HP RPGs are there now?) is for you to decide.

 

[MonsterMash]

Of course, Howard's original stories have recently been republished by Ballantine (so far: The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, Soloman Kane, The Bloody Crown of Conan, andBran Mak Morn: The Last king -- with more to come!).

Apparently they've been selling extremely well in North America. (I'm not sure if they're available in the U.K. and Ireland yet.)

Howard's making a comeback!

We've had the Gollancz Fantasy Masterworks editions of the Howard Conan stories out for a number of years now. This series also has the Lankhmar novels, the Dying Earth and Moorcock's Elric stories, not sure about availability in Eire though.

 

[S'mon]

Howard's OK, Lieber is great. Some of the yoots of today would be lost on his prose though, being dumbed down by the likes of Harry Potter and such. Yeah, I'm a snob.

Well IMO Leiber is for teenagers & up, whereas Harry Potter is for chidren. I wouldn't expect an 8 year old to enjoy Leiber much; I guess if an 18 year old prefers Potter & can't understand Leiber maybe their reading skill isn't great. Although personally I recall reading Donaldson's "White Gold Wielder" age ca 10 & loving it & its incredibly convoluted prose, and I recently (age 32) read Pullman's His Dark Materials children's fantasy series & enjoying it too.

 

[S'mon]

Edit: Actually, "Mazirian the Magician" is sufficient. It's the clearest representation of the system, and the story is only about 15 pages long.

That's really the only Vance story that describes a D&D-like magic system. In Rhialto the Marvellous the mages seem to have vast and almost unlimited powers and the feel is very different. I guess maybe Mazirian is 6th level & Rhilato 18th...

 

[Hand of Evil]

Where is the love for Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan, John Carter, Carson Napier, etc), Ken Robeson (Doc Savage), and those others that helped push pulp/fantasy to readers but also to the mass market.