Who are Howard and Leiber?

[JoeGKushner]

He sounds like me.

One of the problems with Howard and other authors whose books are old, is that they periodically go out of print. How many people have read Jirel of Jorel by C. L. Moore for example or the Worms of Onribus? Fantasy certainly did not start with J R. R. Tolkeen as Clark Ashton Smith and others like Robert E. Howard proved, but he did put it into the main stream mind so to speak.

And as I've noted before, with the wide library of books that WoTC produces itself, D&D is it's own genre. Heck, there are many best sellers in the FR and DL brands alone. It'll be interesting to see how Keith grows as a writer and if they ever give him a hardcover deal, just to see how that fares in the market.

 

[Henry]

Back when I read Felon's quote in the other thread, I was having siimilar thoughts to Merric's, but no real time to comment in-depth. Howard, Leiber, Moorcock, and Tolkien, while good to fantastic authors, and having defined the presence of D&D up until recently, have little to no bearing on the newer generations of fantasy consumers today. It's happy, sad, or apathetic, as you please, but it's truth, most importantly. Unless enough people were to somehow shift the trend back to those earlier authors (good luck on that!) then it's something to be dealt with more than railed against.

 

[Akrasia]

We've had the Gollancz Fantasy Masterworks editions of the Howard Conan stories out for a number of years now. This series also has the Lankhmar novels, the Dying Earth and Moorcock's Elric stories, not sure about availability in Eire though.

I have the Gollancz books for Leiber's Nehwon storie and Vance's Lyonesse series. I'll have to kep my eyes open for the others. Thanks.

 

[ephemeron]

Apuleian D&D

Are you sure that's a fantasy novel?

I think I could make a case that The Golden Ass is the progenitor of magical realism -- unlike the Greek novels that had evil Egyptian wizards chasing people off the map and even to the moon, Apuleius kept things in real places, and the events that aren't impossible are described realistically.

But that aside -- though I haven't done anything with it myself, The Golden Ass has lots of bits that could be worked into a game (I'm thinking especially of the stories about witchcraft, early in the book), and Apuleius himself would make a fun NPC or model for a PC. He was sort of an itinerant professor of Neo-Platonic philosophy, who eventually married a rich widow in North Africa and settled down. Then his in-laws, unhappy that he'd redirected their inheritances, brought him into court on charges that he'd used magic to win her affections. His defense speech, which is the only work of his other than The Golden Ass that survives, is a lot of fun; he mocks his accusers as ignorant provincials who can't tell the difference between evil magic and high-minded study of the natural world, but never quite denies that he was up to something weird. Probably a bard who put a lot of points into Perform (Oratory) and Knowledge (Arcana).

 

[JoeGKushner]

I don't think D&D should be 'restricted' to any set of authors.

My point was that as a 'baseline' or 'default', the classics are best (Tolkien, Howard, Vance, etc.).

The newer stuff shouldn't be built into the core of D&D. For one thing, there is too much disagreement about its quality (I think Feist is mediocre, apparently MerricB does not). For another thing, it should be up to different groups -- and supplements, and campaign settings -- to diverge from the default D&D assumptions.

Default D&D should stick to its original sources -- those are what made it what it is.

But even looking at the original sources, we see a huge amount of material that's not captured by the game system. Elric and Conan do not stand side by side. Heck, Hawkmoon uses high-tech and Elric summons gods. That does not stand side by side. If D&D were being built only for people who were 35+ years old who grew up on those books, I'd say yeah, it should have some 'default assumptions' but it's built for today's potential audience.

 

[Tinner]

We all need to sing the praises of Ill Met in Lankhmar more. (Though - do remember, Lieber has what may be perceived to be a somewhat sexist approach to his tales when read by a female audience).

Somewhat sexist?!?!?!?

Have you read Lieber?!?!?!?
From the conniving women of Fafhrd's tribe, to the slave girls in the bazar, and even in the way the heros sweetheatrs are killed off and used to motivate Fafhrd and the Mouser. Lieber treats women as objects.
I'm not saying his stories aren't great. They are, and II love them.
But I'd no sooner reccomend them to a sensitive reader than I would the Gor books.

As for using them as inspiration for gaming ... I think modern publishers would be wise to be a little more friendly with both halves of humanity.

 

[WayneLigon]

In relatively recent years, protagonists themselves are becoming the wonderworkers. Harry Potter is only the most recent and the most popular. Offhand, I can think of several other examples: Ged from A Wizard of Earthsea, Belgarion from the Belgariad, Luke Skywalker from Star Wars, various characters from the Xanth novels, superheroes from the comics, etc. Magic is no longer something alien or separate from the protagonist, but an accepted and integral part of his identity.

I think that would be a very interesting comparison. Early fantasy literature had two choices for the magic-user: become evil or go insane. Very, very few witches were good ones and the ones who were good always seemed to shun using their powers for fear of becoming corrupted by it. Glinda the Good might be the only one I can think of.

After the new wave of fantasy started to hit, we started seeing more and more wizard protagonists. Before, they were always enemies or, at best, sidekicks. We also see them use more and more magic for themselves and for others. Gandalf hoarded his power, rightly fearful of tipping a delicate balance. Harry spends his like water, rigfhtly expecting something in return for effort and time expended.

 

[WayneLigon]

But I'd no sooner reccomend them to a sensitive reader than I would the Gor books. As for using them as inspiration for gaming ... I think modern publishers would be wise to be a little more friendly with both halves of humanity.

Much as I'm an advocate of having some sensitivity there, that's just nuts. There's such a thing as being too thin-skinned and comparing Leiber to Gor is it.

 

[painandgreed]

Let's not forget Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson as there are many things in D&D directly out of there IIRC. The description of the troll for example down to the carrot like nose.

 

[diaglo]

for a different spin on Arthurian Legend:

The Crystal Cave by Mary Stewart

or Mark Twain's version.