Who are Howard and Leiber?

[Desdichado]

You know what EN World needs? A book discussion club with a dedicated forum for it.

We've already got one. Except that we also discuss "genre" TV and movies there too.

 

[Tinner]

Quite right. That post was ridiculous, IMO. Leiber's women had spunk and character. They were nothing like, say, Howard's women. Not that some of them didn't have spunk too. I despise forced and unnatural political correctness for its own sake.

Despise it all you like, but as long as publishers insist on PC, you really can't ignore it.

As for Lieber's women having spunk - sure, some did.
But did the girls dangling in the cages in the "Bazar of the Bizarre" really show all that much spunk? Or were they just there "for dessert" as Lieber actually wrote?

 

[Turjan]

Despise it all you like, but as long as publishers insist on PC, you really can't ignore it.

As for Lieber's women having spunk - sure, some did.
But did the girls dangling in the cages in the "Bazar of the Bizarre" really show all that much spunk? Or were they just there "for dessert" as Lieber actually wrote?

Did you ever look at the publication dates of the classics? When did the USA abolish racial segregation (I don't want to discuss this, I just want to put things into context)? Believe it or not, even those works that look terribly non-pc to today's readers have often emancipatory elements. At least the authors saw their female heroes as such. But please, don't apply today's mindset to authors that wrote half a century or more ago.

 

[Hjorimir]

If you wait long enough, the old becomes new and vice-versa. That’s where I am now. I’m sick of magic as a commodity settings (ala Forgotten Realms, Eberron) and have been revisiting the works that made me love the game so much in the first place. Truth be told, I haven’t read most of these authors – in fact, I’ve only really read Tolkien and a little of ERB’s John Carter books – and only came to know them vicariously through the games of those who had or by a movie (in the case of Conan).

I’ve been playing D&D for over twenty years and am re-discovering the game as I am currently reading Vance and Lovecraft. Soon, I will be reading Howard, Lieber, and Moorcock.

For me, magic has become bland, unimaginative and completely predictable in D&D as it is presented. I yawn with every fireball cast. Likewise, there is nothing rare or special in magic items anymore where characters work to min/max their bonuses while conforming to their paper-doll limitations.

Am I bitter about what D&D has become? Not at all. To each their own, I say. I’m just exercising that same mentality with myself; I cannot wait for my Grim Tales/Black Company game. Gritty. Dark. Heroic.

 

[painandgreed]

No offense, MerricB, but what do you mean by warning? Are you a mod? Are you going to report posts just because you don't want to talk about spin-off (yet clearly related) asides in your thread?

Where are you going with this?

Netiquette in most of civilized netspace holds that posters should at least pay token repect to the thread creator within the thread they created. They, after all, are the authority on what the thread is about. If off topic subjects warrent it, then a new separate thread can always be created so as to not be seen as a troll.

 

[Zander]

How many people have read... the Worms of Onribus?

Funny you should say that. I bought a new copy of Worm of Ouroboros last Saturday and am planning on starting it as soon as I can find the time. I've been thinking of reading it for some years. It's still published as part of the MasterWork series by Gollanz previously mentioned in this thread by MonsterMash.

Broadly speaking, older works of fantasy that maintain a certain level of popularity have influenced the genre more. So even if I may not have read a particular work, when I do, I find elements that are familiar. Like most people, I like things with which I am at least partly familiar.

 

[Desdichado]

Despise it all you like, but as long as publishers insist on PC, you really can't ignore it.

Who says? What publishers are insisting on PC? WotC? Those novels are easy to ignore--I haven't read one in years. Certainly most of the other fantasy I read isn't PC. Or, at least, it isn't necessarily so. It isn't blatantly being PC for it's own sake.

But did the girls dangling in the cages in the "Bazar of the Bizarre" really show all that much spunk? Or were they just there "for dessert" as Lieber actually wrote?

There have been girls dancing in cages in all kinds of recent movies. Are they now as sexist as John Norman? Sorry, your post is extremist and reactionary. It's nonsensical. Leiber wasn't particularly sexist, even for his time when society itself was. He was a leader in the genre for not portraying women as simply sex objects.

 

[Tinner]

Did you ever look at the publication dates of the classics? When did the USA abolish racial segregation (I don't want to discuss this, I just want to put things into context)? Believe it or not, even those works that look terribly non-pc to today's readers have often emancipatory elements. At least the authors saw their female heroes as such. But please, don't apply today's mindset to authors that wrote half a century or more ago.

I think I'm being misunderstood.
I am in NO way implying that Leiber is a bad author. I have all the books. I read them regularly. I've got the old Lanhkmar boxed sets and everything.
I am also NOT saying that Leiber was a bad person who treated women badly. I don't really know much about the author's politics and personal life.

My points were and are these:
By today's standards Leiber's writing does contain some "politically incorrect" material.
Modern publishers are less likely to publish "politically incorrect" material.
Modern readers are less tolerant of "politically incorrect" material. Especially casual readers, and members of those races/genders that are being portrayed "insensitively."
It is highly unlikely that a large corporation like Hasbro would choose to use such material as "source material" for new products and settings, as it is a) potentially "offensive" and b) not widely accessible to the mass market.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm merely pointing out one possible reason whey Leiber has been overlooked recently as source material by both readers and publishers.

That said, I find myself in the mood for a litle light reading, "Swords & Deviltry" anyone?

 

[Hand of Evil]

I think I'm being misunderstood. (snip)
...
My points were and are these:
By today's standards Leiber's writing does contain some "politically incorrect" material.
Modern publishers are less likely to publish "politically incorrect" material.
Modern readers are less tolerant of "politically incorrect" material. Especially casual readers, and members of those races/genders that are being portrayed "insensitively."

That is why you have orcs.

 

[Reynard]

We've already got one. Except that we also discuss "genre" TV and movies there too.

I should have put the emphasis on the word 'club' -- implying some sort of organized structure, and then a forum to support it. I am well aware of the Other Media-esque forum here, but I was thinking more the (specifically) EN World Book Club Forum.

But, I'm getting off topic. *ducks out before MerricB sees him*