Who can climb?

[mwaite]

Here is the situation: The players are being attacked by a pack of goblin worg riders. The PCs climb the nearest tree and start shooting their crossbows down at the goblins. The goblins respond by dismounting and returning fire with their crossbows, while letting their worgs climb the tree for an attack.

Protests ensue. The players argue that worgs cannot climb trees because they lack claw attacks. Claw attacks, they reason, mean that the animal possesses enough manual dexterity to climb.

I counter by saying that anybody can climb as long as they have limbs. I am even willing to concede that creatures without claw attacks can have a penalty to their climb check, but I think it is completely unreasonable to say that they cannot climb at all.

What do you guys think?

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

In real life, wolves can't climb trees.

I think you have to defer to common sense here. Your players are right.

Ken

 

[MithrasRahl]

Agreed with Haffrung.

What you could do is rule that at least a couple of party members had to stay on the lower branches, since everyone on the higherones would cause the branches to snap.

Since Worgs are 5 feet long, they could probably go up on their hind legs and bite at the people on the lower limbs.

 

[frankthedm]

1. The rules do cover this, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

Natural Tendencies
Some creatures simply aren’t made for certain types of physical activity. If it seems clear that a particular creature simply is not made for a particular physical activity, that creature takes a -8 penalty on skill checks that defy its natural tendencies.

In extreme circumstances the creature fails the check automatically.

I say canids, equines, bovines all fall in the autofail on any climb check catagory.

 

[mwaite]

1. The rules do cover this, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

Natural Tendencies
Some creatures simply aren’t made for certain types of physical activity. If it seems clear that a particular creature simply is not made for a particular physical activity, that creature takes a -8 penalty on skill checks that defy its natural tendencies.

In extreme circumstances the creature fails the check automatically.

I say canids, equines, bovines all fall in the autofail on any climb check catagory.

Would you say that a worg being a magical beast with an above animal-level intelligence (6) makes a difference? I argued that a worg is smart enough to know its own limitations and, since it doesn't act on instinct alone, is smart enough to dig its nails into the tree to get leverage. It suffered a penalty, but I saw it as a possibility.

 

[Deset Gled]

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible for dogs to climb trees. Here's one example: http://www.guzer.com/videos/tree_climbing_dog.php I'm sure toutube has many more.

The worgs should be able to at least make a check to climb a tree. If they are animal companions, climbing could easily be one of the tricks they have been taught. And if they're trained for combat and riding, like a war horse, they should definetally have less of a penalty than a normal, untrained dog.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I've seen video of some real life dogs that basically ran up a tree. I'd let a worg attempt to climb at the -8 penalty (in addition to the other penalties/vulnerabilities associated with climbing).

The goblins probably should be better climbers than the worgs. I like the climbing goblin/orcs in LotR.

I've never had players attempt to climb a tree to escape anything. I'm glad your group tries things like that.

 

[MithrasRahl]

While it's possible, it's also a rarity.

If these are trained anything like War Horses, I would think they'd provide cover for their goblins to shoot up.

While anything, and I mean anything, can have a "valid" argument, I think there are some things that you should avoid, like tree-climbing wolves.

I also think it's important to note that your entire group's reaction was "Dubya tea eff??" when the Worgs started climbing. Since this is a game, and the decision is controversial at best, maybe just find another way to do it? Maybe the 300 pound wargs take turns ramming the tree, and the PCs have to make balance checks if they want to do anything other than hold on for dear life.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

OK, that video amazes me. I have to admit, I wouldn't have thought that was possible.

Still, it doesn't change my mind about the worg example.

First of all, that dog was able to climb the tree, but he certainly wasn't going to be attacking anything while doing so... it was all he could do just to hold on.

Secondly, I agree with the people here who said that when adjudicating what monsters can do in a situation like this, we should go with what the typical creature can do. I believe this for two reasons:

1) it strains belief when all your monsters have abilities that are unusual for their kind whenever it's convenient for the DM. It also leads to the perception that you as the GM are cheating and bending the rules to get your way.

2) players need to be able to make predictions about how events will unfold in the game world. To do this, they should be able to draw on common sense. It's common sense that climbing up a tree is a good way to get away from an animal that doesn't climb. Hell, it's probably genetic...our ancestors were arboreal and probably escaped a lot of predators that way.

Ken

 

[Deset Gled]

While it's possible, it's also a rarity.

...

While anything, and I mean anything, can have a "valid" argument, I think there are some things that you should avoid, like tree-climbing wolves.

Secondly, I agree with the people here who said that when adjudicating what monsters can do in a situation like this, we should go with what the typical creature can do.

Something that's difficult should be hard check. You can impose as many racial and circumstance modifiers as you want, add concentration checks when necessary, and limit movement for difficult terrain, but you should still allow the check. Saying you can't attempt something because it's difficult is just... well... I just don't get it. What's the point of playing a fantasy game if you're going to flat out disallow intelligent magical beasts from attempting things that we know a normal, real life animal can do?