3E/3.5 Who created the Sorcerer?

gyor

Legend
I would tend to believe many wizards were likely actually jealous of sorcerers. Here they are, studying for hours, poring over dusty tomes, trying to master how to cast a simple spell, when it all just comes naturally to the sorcerer. Add on the fact that a sorcerer can cast more spells per day than a wizard of the same level, and the jealousy only increases. It's not particularly surprising, then, that those wizards would project this jealousy into scorn - better to look down upon sorcerers in disdain than to pine hopelessly to be one, knowing you just don't have what it takes for spellcasting to come that naturally to you.

Johnathan
It's the old Magic Nerds vs Magic Jocks thing, even in FR Lore a lot of Wizard dominate nations don't like Sorcerers, Thay, Halruaa, perhaps others. Clerics tend to view Favoured/Divine Souls Sorcerers simularly, sometimes. I'm trying to think of a single FR nation that perfers Sorcerers, but nothing comes to mind. I do some research.
 

gyor

Legend

Aglarond seems to be one of the few realms that hold Sorcerers in high esteem, and perhaps Mulhorand, likely due to there being a lot of Divine Souls and Storm Sorcerers in the region tie to religion, perhaps other types as well.
 
It's the old Magic Nerds vs Magic Jocks thing, even in FR Lore a lot of Wizard dominate nations don't like Sorcerers, Thay, Halruaa, perhaps others. Clerics tend to view Favoured/Divine Souls Sorcerers simularly, sometimes. I'm trying to think of a single FR nation that perfers Sorcerers, but nothing comes to mind. I do some research.
Well Sorcerers are often to rare to take any political control.

The standard origin for a sorcerer has them rare and unfortunate. So a mage guild or magocracy just won't have many sorcerer's if any and would see them as threats.

I think only dragonborn nations have many sorcerers and few DMs and official settings have.

But it feels like a Nerds vs Theater kids thing in setting as well.
 

JeffB

Legend
Jonathan Tweet has a fairly regular column here talking specifically about 3E design. Might want to ask him in the comments next time Russ posts one of his articles?
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Can I get a link to what this last thread was? I'm unsure of what is being referenced but would like to read it.
It is the previous thread I started to respond to a post in another thread before it.
 

gyor

Legend
Well Sorcerers are often to rare to take any political control.

The standard origin for a sorcerer has them rare and unfortunate. So a mage guild or magocracy just won't have many sorcerer's if any and would see them as threats.

I think only dragonborn nations have many sorcerers and few DMs and official settings have.

But it feels like a Nerds vs Theater kids thing in setting as well.
If you read the fluff for FR and the Divine Soul Sorcerer they rare in general, but not always rare locally, just as Wizards are uncommon until you get to a place Halruaa, Thay, Deep Imaskar, where they are common.
 

the Jester

Legend
Also he purportedly said things like "if players complain about sorcerer, they should have played a wizard instead" to defend giving extra slots per day to wizards, and "how they aren't a proper casting class". (To be fair though, I haven't seen the actual quotes in context)
That's funny, seeing as how it was sorcerers who had extra slots per day compared to wizards. Unless you're referring to the idea of giving wizards more slots later on, in some kind of supplement or something?

Anyhow, I don't think that the supposed disdain you are seeing was a thing among the designers, so much as the in-character quotes from wizards showed that those characters felt disdain for sorcerers in-world. I suspect that the 3e version of the sorcerer came out weak because the designers were afraid that the combination of extra spell slots and "I don't have to prepare" would be overpowered.
 

Todd Roybark

Adventurer
also has this in character quote by Mialee dissing sorcerers.
XGE also has a quote about Bat Wings for Evil and Feathered Wings for Good being a tired trope above the Divine Soul Subclass. ‘In Character’ flavor text should not be considered as accurately representing designer opinion.

Monte Cook stated during his Malhavoc Press days that a 3e ‘blaster’ type sorcerer was balanced, and part of the design philosophy of 3e. It was the ‘Buffer/Utility’ Sorcerer build that was not expected by the designers, and was much more problematic.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
‘In Character’ flavor text should not be considered as accurately representing designer opinion.
Like I said. It is not the in character text itself. It is the fact that it is right next to the sorcerer stuff speaking of sorcerers in a dismissive way -on the only half page dedicated to sorcerers after a dozen focussed on wizard only- this im a book that basically gives wizards extra spell slots and introduces reserve feats that sorcerers can't use. All at a very reduced cost. On the other hand sorcerers only get the option to cast metamagic without extra time but it takes 9 levels and spending a significative portion of your skill points on a skill that is of little use to sorcerers.

Then -supposedly- when asked on why he gave wizards ectra slots, but no extra spells known to sorcerers wulliams answers "then you should be playing wizards"
 

Todd Roybark

Adventurer
Well to be fair many people have at least a few “You Should Have played a Wizard” moments vis a vis Sorcerers...🤩

Perhaps Skip renounced his creation like Dr. Frankenstein. 😇

The softcover 3.0 Splatbooks were to use a term of art...crappy

Complete Mage, outside of the PrCs, was not heavily used, at least not on the Enworld discussion boards....were Sudden Metamagic Feats in that book?
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
It's the old Magic Nerds vs Magic Jocks thing, even in FR Lore a lot of Wizard dominate nations don't like Sorcerers, Thay, Halruaa, perhaps others. Clerics tend to view Favoured/Divine Souls Sorcerers simularly, sometimes. I'm trying to think of a single FR nation that perfers Sorcerers, but nothing comes to mind. I do some research.
I'd say it's more like academic vs. self taught thing. The wizards and warmages attending their colleges and academies, spending years to learn magic and get their magic degree looking down on the guy figuring out magic in his garage.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
It is also the fact that it is right next to the sorcerer alternate class features. The one spot in the book dedicated to the sorcerer is dissing them. It would be different if this quote was next to the wizard, or or if next to the wizard there was a similar quote by Hennet. But it isn't, instead there's only love to wizard in the many pages dedicated exclusively to them.
Granted they could have maybe had a positive quote about the sorcerer at that spot in the book, but I'd still wouldn't read that as any sort of malice against the class on the behalf of the designers.
 

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