Who else here plays Exalted?

[evildmguy]

So the inherent power of the character is only one part of the story - the mechanics are at least as important. In Exalted, the game mechanics award you if you try over-the-top things. In D&D, they punish you for attempting them unless your character was already hyper-competent anyway.

Well said and better than I!

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

 

[Crothian]

Crothian: I am with Jurgan on this. I am NOT invalidating what you have said. However, I find the underlying mechanics of d20 to be more restrictive than Exalted. The point being that if a *Player* knows the DC is 28 (or 38, or 48, or 58 . . .) and can figure it out without the DM, he might not even try it. So, the question is, are you cool *within* the game rules? If not, then aren't you only cool either a) within the character's mind and b) at the DM's whim?

So, knowing the rules is a bad thing? I'm not familar with exalted enough to know the answer to this: In exalted does the storyteller have clear cut difficultues like d20 or is the story teller just making this up? It sounds like he's making it up as the game is not like Paranoia in expecting the players to not understand the rules. Either the rules are defined or not.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

And it has nothing to do with cool. Exalted is a game of different assumptions and different power levels ofr the PCs so of course the so called impossible is easier for them. If I rewrk d20 so all the characters start out epic then such challenges become easier for them to. If I through in a hero point option then it gives the players more options to make the impossible happen. But I fail to see how this makes a character cool.

So tell us, what does make a character "cool", in your opinion?

Oh, and "hero points", "action points", or whatever you want to call them - no matter what incarnation of d20 they are in, they always seem to be a limited resource. You have a limited number of them per day/level/whatever, and once you use them up, you are out of luck.

In Exalted, however, the stunts you can pull off are only limited by how often you can come up with cool descriptions! Unlike in d20, you don't have to bother with resource management for pulling off cool stunts!

Ya, in our worlkd the things are hard and chanllenging, but in the world of exalted this impossible taks happen on a daily basis. So, it becomes mundane in the eyes of the exalted player.

It doesn't happen on a daily basis everywhere in the world. It only happens when player characters (and a small, select number of NPCs) are involved.

and how does d20 punish you? Its just harder. Its not like the rules say "Psst, DM if the player tries something over the top have a dragon attack him". THat is pounishing the players. d20 just doesn't have the characters as demi gods that are expected to succeed at over the top things all the time. Two different games and two different assumptions; both fit what the game is trying to do.

Yes, and D&D/d20 is not about pulling crazy and over-the-top stunts all the time. It's about resource management. With which there is nothing wrong, but if you want to have lots of over-the-top stunts all the time, you are better off with Exalted, since it was written with that kind of thing in mind. And D&D wasn't, and neither were most incarnations of d20 I am aware of.

 

[Crothian]

So tell us, what does make a character "cool", in your opinion?

THe essence of cool is defined differently at each table. At my table it is about how the player plays the character and while it can include difficult things, it is also depant in some respect to how the dice play out and how the player acts. Cool can happen in any game, and no game I've seen makes characters cooler then others except perhaps Noir, but noir is just cool

It doesn't happen on a daily basis everywhere in the world. It only happens when player characters (and a small, select number of NPCs) are involved.

Right, every day for the PCs. That's like trying to claim a game is low magic when only the PCs have +20 items on them.

Yes, and D&D/d20 is not about pulling crazy and over-the-top stunts all the time. It's about resource management. With which there is nothing wrong, but if you want to have lots of over-the-top stunts all the time, you are better off with Exalted, since it was written with that kind of thing in mind. And D&D wasn't, and neither were most incarnations of d20 I am aware of.

No arguement here. THey are two different games buiklt on different designs and assumptions. Its just that you seem to think the exalted game makes characters cooler then the d20 game. No one ever said that d20 does exalted better then exalted. My points through out thread are still the same, they are 2 different games but dispite that one is not cooler then the other.

 

[evildmguy]

So, knowing the rules is a bad thing? I'm not familar with exalted enough to know the answer to this: In exalted does the storyteller have clear cut difficultues like d20 or is the story teller just making this up? It sounds like he's making it up as the game is not like Paranoia in expecting the players to not understand the rules. Either the rules are defined or not.

First of all, we both have different ideas, which aren't bad.

Second, knowing the rules IS a bad thing, imo. I have seen this many times in DND/d20. A new player comes in and has an idea of what they want to do, such as use a rope to swing from a chandalier, and come in attacking. Something mimicking something they saw, as they don't know the rules. The DM, then shows the new player how the rules work and what it means in game terms. I don't know if we can agree on that but that's what I have seen.

After this happens, and the player knows the rules, the player doesn't always do what's cool, if he knows the DC is 28 and he has a +7. Or +8, or maybe even +12. However, now that the player is "used to the rules" they, generally speaking, constrain themselves to what the rules allow them to do. Again, I am not saying their aren't exceptions who will try something every once in a while but it is rare. And my guess is that it would be in a controlled situation where there is little chance of death but a big chance of looking "cool."

In contrast, in Exalted, the GM never has to explain the rules. In fact, it is probably better if she doesn't. Instead, she merely converts what the player said to a bonus, has the player make the roll and then explains what happens.

Again, to be PC, I understand me and my groups experiences are unique to us. What I saw, as I took a group of DND people through Exalted, was shyness and timidness of doing a tenth of what they could do as Exalted characters, because they knew the penalties in DND were so stiff. They knew the rules of DND and figured it was the same or used them as a base, neither of which is bad. However, it took a LONG time, months, to get over the differences in the system. And, again I can only speak for my players, they really came to enjoy Exalted a lot more than DND in terms of player options and player control over their characters. Especially in doing stunts.

Again, YMMV.

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

So, knowing the rules is a bad thing? I'm not familar with exalted enough to know the answer to this: In exalted does the storyteller have clear cut difficultues like d20 or is the story teller just making this up? It sounds like he's making it up as the game is not like Paranoia in expecting the players to not understand the rules. Either the rules are defined or not.

In a word, yes - there are clear-cut difficulties for such things. There are lots of examples for individual skills, but the basic difficulty table is:

1 Success: Standard
2 Successes: Difficult
3 Successes: Challenging
4 Successes: Nearly Impossible
5 Successes: Legendary

To give you a frame of reference, an ordinary mortal has approximately a 50% chance of succeeding at a "Legendary" task if he has the maximum skill and highest possible attribute relevant for that task (it is possible to improve those odds through stunts and specialties if you want to specialize in a certain kind of task, but I'll leave it there for now).

For example, throwing things and weapons is covered by the "Thrown" skill. Example difficulties are:

Standard: Cut a rope with a thrown knife.
Challenging: Sever a rope with a thrown knife as you fall past the rope.
Legendary: Sever a rope with a thrown knife you hurl with only your fingertips and the twist of your body as you fall, bound and gagged, past the rope.

Or let's look at the difficulties for the "Survival" skill:

Standard: Find food and shelter in the woods at night. Tame a wolf or hawk.
Challenging: Find food and shelter in the savage jungles of the Threshold, despite the fact that you have only a knife and are unfamiliar with the terrain. Tame a bear or tiger.
Legendary: Find food and shelter after being abandoned, naked, in the icy reaches of the North in the middle of a blizzard. Note that the Storyteller will probably make you roll out the combat where you beat the polar bear to death with your bare hands. Tame sharks, gryphons or other "untamable" animals.


These difficulties seem to be clear-cut to me. Sure, they don't involve as much math as those in D&D - but since the difficulties in D&D often aren't very realistic either, I tend to consider this a feature, and not a bug.

 

[evildmguy]

Right, every day for the PCs. That's like trying to claim a game is low magic when only the PCs have +20 items on them.

No arguement here. THey are two different games buiklt on different designs and assumptions. Its just that you seem to think the exalted game makes characters cooler then the d20 game. No one ever said that d20 does exalted better then exalted. My points through out thread are still the same, they are 2 different games but dispite that one is not cooler then the other.

Again, I completely agree that d20 and Exalted are for different types, or styles, of games. Neither is better than the other.

Every day for the PCs is not doing these stunts. Without you knowing the rules, the best I can do is say "trust me" even those stunts aren't every day occurances. If you wish a discussion of the rules, I can try and explain them.

And, finally, I agree. Each game can have its own aspects of "cool." Having a rogue with +42 in hide (and I had that at 12th) is "cool" to me. There are examples of that in Exalted as well, such as when the player had his character jump out the window and then when he came back, jump back in! Meanwhile, the other character ran up the wall, like Jackie Chan. Both were very cool!

My own point is that game mechanics influence role playing and what a player will have their character do. And, I think that Exalted allows for more "cool" things than d20 does but as we have both said, that's the difference of the system.

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

 

[Crothian]

Second, knowing the rules IS a bad thing, imo. I have seen this many times in DND/d20. A new player comes in and has an idea of what they want to do, such as use a rope to swing from a chandalier, and come in attacking. Something mimicking something they saw, as they don't know the rules. The DM, then shows the new player how the rules work and what it means in game terms. I don't know if we can agree on that but that's what I have seen.

It seems to me the dfifference is not in the games but of people feeling they can be successful or not. As a DM, and this is of any game I run not just d20, I encourage people to try things. So what if the dice say you only have a 10% chance to be successful. THe fun of over the top things is not in being successful all the time, its in trying them and having fun with what ever happens. So, its the players and DMs who really set this with the tone and mood of the game more then the actually game.

In contrast, in Exalted, the GM never has to explain the rules. In fact, it is probably better if she doesn't. Instead, she merely converts what the player said to a bonus, has the player make the roll and then explains what happens.

Many players don't like this though. That requires a lot of trust in the storyteller and trust has to be earned. Also, people that play exalted know the rules pretty well from what I've seen and read over on RPGNet. But with all things it doesn't matter what happens at my table or other tables, if it works for you then that is great. I know as in my d20 game a lot of things I do don't work for other people.

And don't get me wrong, I like exalted. I wouldn't have a dozen of the books or so if I didn't. All games not just exalted and d20 are built with certain assumptions and its up for the people playing to find the game that fits them.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

THe essence of cool is defined differently at each table. At my table it is about how the player plays the character and while it can include difficult things, it is also depant in some respect to how the dice play out and how the player acts. Cool can happen in any game, and no game I've seen makes characters cooler then others except perhaps Noir, but noir is just cool

Well, then let me ask the reverse question: Is it possible for a game to make the player characters less cool than in other games?

Right, every day for the PCs. That's like trying to claim a game is low magic when only the PCs have +20 items on them.

D&D essentially treats all characters the same, whether they are PCs or NPCs. Exalted, however, is unapologetic in treating large groups of NPCs as less important than PCs or major NPCs - they are even called "Extras" and withstand much less damage than anyone of importance. A bit like the Wound/Vitality system in Star Wars d20 treats unimportant NPCs, only more so. The rulebook even explicitly states: "Extras are not serious dangers to the players's characters - extras are human scenery whose purpose is to let the players's characters show off their cool powers and amazing abilities."

The PCs in Exalted, whether they are Solars, other types of Exalted, or just Heroic Mortals are special, no matter how gritty the rest of the world may be (and it is pretty gritty). And the rules reflect that.

No arguement here. THey are two different games buiklt on different designs and assumptions. Its just that you seem to think the exalted game makes characters cooler then the d20 game. No one ever said that d20 does exalted better then exalted.

Well, you implied it by claiming that d20 is "similar and better written".

My points through out thread are still the same, they are 2 different games but dispite that one is not cooler then the other.

Well, both games are cool. But in one of them, it is easier for the PCs to act cool. And that game it isn't D&D...

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'm hoping that after Exalted 2nd ed comes out, that they do a space opera style game using Exalted's engine.