Who is Older: Dragons or Demons?

[The 1 and the Prime]

Who is older: Dragons or Devils and Demons?

I remember 2e tagged Ancient Dragons at 12k years.

And for that matter, what is the age range of Liches?

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Don't know that any of the rules might say, but in my opinion, it would be devils and demons, although time as measured by the material races has little meaning in the outer planes.

Liches are usually older by the time they have the power to become liches, but after that their life expectancy is for as long as they don't run across adventurers. As a result I would put the range at 40 - ????

 

[NewJeffCT]

I thought demons and devils are immortal unless killed? Of course, given their chaotic and evil nature, demons don't often live very long lives.

 

[Shemeska]

The first fiends were around before the material plane and mortals even existed (baernaloths, yugoloths, obyriths, gehreleths/demodands, and ancient baatorians).

The next tier of fiends - demons/tanar'ri and devils/baatezu - only appeared once mortals were created and their souls began to migrate to the outer planes.

As for any specific fiend, its age depends on when it was created from a mortal soul or if it was created some other way. Now many fiends must advance up from lower forms, which takes time, and the unique fiends are all incredibly old by mortal standards of measurement (some of them older than mortality itself).

 

[The 1 and the Prime]

Ok, I am aware that outsiders are potentially unlimited in age, being immortal and such. And that some are older than mortality. Allow me to clarify:

I am asking, if the player bump into your "average" Balor or Pit Fiend, where does he fall on the Ancient Dragon scale of age? Presumably the most ancient of dragons have also been around since the dawning of the conventional intelligent mortal races, and possibly longer. According to the 2e MC (that is Monsterous Compendium) entry IIRC the "average" ancient dragon players run into is 12,000 years old. While this represents the "average" ancient dragon, the oldest ancient dragons may in fact be one or two orders of magnitude older. Or not.

So, again, I am asking about the "typical" or "archetypal" or "average" Balors and Pit Fiends.

 

[Umbran]

The answer is: How old do you, the GM, want them to be?

Otherwise, it is setting-dependent. How long ago did mortal (maybe specifically humanoid mortal) souls come into being in the setting? Pit Fiends and Balors are probably not any older than that. There's an upper limit.

How much turnover is there among the balors and pit fiends? Are they getting permanently destroyed (by adventurers or by each other) frequently? Then most of them are relatively young. Otherwise, they're only a little younger than souls.

 

[Kvantum]

Who is older: Dragons or Devils and Demons?

I remember 2e tagged Ancient Dragons at 12k years.

And for that matter, what is the age range of Liches?

2e Great Wyrms were 1200+ years old, not 12,000+.

 

[Alzrius]

Insofar as fiends go, I'd imagine that a given fiend is older as you go up the "food chain."

For example, a manes probably hasn't existed very long - they're weak, so after a while it's likely to get killed by something else, or will evolve into a stronger form. By contrast, a balor has probably lived a very long time, clawing its way up the demonic hierarchy through various forms to finally arrive at the top of the heap.

 

[Mirtek]

2e Great Wyrms were 1200+ years old, not 12,000+.

And they did have rules for maximum ages and natural deaths due to old age (IIRC the longest living species could reach about 9,000 years)

Insofar as fiends go, I'd imagine that a given fiend is older as you go up the "food chain."

For example, a manes probably hasn't existed very long - they're weak, so after a while it's likely to get killed by something else, or will evolve into a stronger form. By contrast, a balor has probably lived a very long time, clawing its way up the demonic hierarchy through various forms to finally arrive at the top of the heap.

Anyone recalls from the top of his head how long a pit fiend aspirant had to spend in this special pit of fire? I think it was either 66 years, 666 years, 99 years or 999 years. If it's the last, then most pit fiends should be well over 1,000 years old just from having to have sit 999 years in this pit for their final transformation

 

[Lord Zardoz]

For my games meta-physical purposes, I consider Dragons to be the Prime material planes analog to Devils / Demons (lower planes) and angels (higher planes). I would also generally rule that the existence of Dragons predates the existence of every other immortal race.

As for which has a longer life span or which is generally more likely to be older, I would edge it a bit towards Devils / Demons / et al because the Dragons are mortal in that they reproduce and die. Some dragons do manage the trick of 'not dying ever', but those are exceedingly rare (ie, probably only Tiamat and Bahamut).

END COMMUNICATION