Who "Owns" Old PC's?

[barsoomcore]

This of course leads one to wonder, "Can we just "turn off" our emotions?"

I think so. I think it is very hard, and most people who think they're doing it probably aren't because i don't think its so much an "effort of the moment" as much as it is an continual effort.

You have expressed my thoughts much better than I ever could. This is what I MEANT to say. Thanks!

 

[barsoomcore]

As a statement of how things work it is just not true as a statement of philosophy it's ok.

Well, one person's statement of philosophy is another's statement of how things work. I happen to believe that my philosophy describes how things work. That's why I use it. It helps me to understand the world, which it wouldn't be able to do if it didn't describe how things worked.

When I think something is true I say so. I don't feel any need to hide it behind "humble opinions" or what have you. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and here's what I think. If you disagree, great! Tell me why, point out all my failings and laugh at my intellectual ineptitude.

That's what everyone in my family does.

Here I'll give a example of how this fails for me. I don't like one of my Grandmothers ... The only thing I ever felt guilty or mad about was going to see her, so now I don't. There was absolutely no way you can find to put any of the anger in me, you can in no way say I was projecting my own feelings in the case

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about projection of feelings, I'm not talking about blame. What I am saying is that there is something about YOU that made you get so angry with her.

Forget about her actions. You can't make her stop, you can't take back any of the things she's said or done, forget it. Doesn't do any good. All you can do is look at yourself and discover what it is about YOU that makes you get so angry.

Which is, of course, exactly what you did.

I just stopped going around and I let it be known to the family in general that I was done with her for the rest of our lives. I don't get mad anymore I don't worry about it anymore I just stay away.

See? Problem solved. Not by yelling and hollering at her (though I'm sure there was some of that) but just by removing yourself from the equation.

Maybe in a perfect world you could examine your own navel for three hundred years and acquire the peace and wisdom to sit with her and let her rage without getting angry. Maybe it would only take a week. Not the point. You took some responsibility and you put an end to a destructive situation.

I don't know, jdavis, you keep saying what a jerk you are but you keep coming across like a sweetie. I will say that if your friends REALLY thought you were a jerk, they wouldn't be your friends.

 

[jgbrowning]

Regardless of circumstance, regardless of "reasons," regardless of situation, regardless of "reality," the only choice I ever really make is...

Happy or sad.

I cannot control anything in the past or future. I cannot control the actions others do to me. I cannot control anything in the present except for my personal actions. I can control how I react.

If something bad happens, i make the choice to feel bad or good. I may be unable to stop feeling bad for a while, but eventually i'll stop feeling bad. The harder i try, the faster it comes. The more i understand the faster it comes.

It's much more apparant the other way around. Its easy to make yourself feel bad. Just remember all the terrible things that you've gone through. Remember everyone thats ever hurt you, or who you ever hurt. Look around and see all the people suffering. Its easy for almost anyyone to make themselves feel bad.

I agree with barsoomcore about the "angry with yourself" bit. I have a slightly different take. I think the world is perfect and all things are perfect. Even the bad ones. In the end, i think everything serves it purpose and everything is good, i just can't understand how everything is good and its this lack of understanding that makes me angry or frustrated. This is obviously a religious view and utterly contrary to common sense. For most people, that is...

joe b.

 

[jdavis]

I don't know, jdavis, you keep saying what a jerk you are but you keep coming across like a sweetie. I will say that if your friends REALLY thought you were a jerk, they wouldn't be your friends.

Well I'm loyal and I'm funny, but I am a jerk. I came to the conclusion years ago to accept everything that was bad about me so there would never be any confusion about it, I'm selfish and can be horribly inconsiderate, I'm a loudmouth and I will agrue with a fish about how to swim correctly. I am the most negative person I or any of my friends have ever met. It gives me a leg up in insult contest as I never get too upset about anything that anybody ever says about me because I have said worse about myself. I try to be on my best behavior here, but trust me, you wouldn't want to work for me. Oh and when I say that I will be happy when my Grandmother dies I am telling the truth, once a person is to dead to me I waste no more emotion on them, that in itself isn't a good or healty attitude but it's just a part of me I accepted. I can be very considerate of people and be a big defender of a underdog, but in the end I'm a ass and I know it.

Forget about her actions. You can't make her stop, you can't take back any of the things she's said or done, forget it. Doesn't do any good. All you can do is look at yourself and discover what it is about YOU that makes you get so angry.

What it was about me that made me so angry......well it was the fact that I didn't kill her. I understand where you are comming from and what you are saying but if a person wants to make you angry then eventually they will find a way. What made me get so angry was the same thing that makes everybody get angry when somebody insults you every way they know how while acting like she is trying to give you advice, then gets upset with you for questioning her judgement in belittling you, then if you get past that she decides that you are not showing her enough attention or respect so she finds another way to insult you. Very few people could hold up to that kind of onslaught, she will not quit till she gets a rise out of you, all I did was show up to visit. I didn't feel bad about myself or have any problems with myself that made me angry when I showed up, heck if she couldn't find a true insult she would just make something up. You can't forget what she did or said and look at yourself because all I did was sit on the couch. I understand what you are saying but for me it doesn't work at that level, I don't blame her for it, she is what she is but I know that there was no problem with me that I was imposing on what she said or did, she sat out to make me angry, it was her goal everytime I was around. It is a extreme example but there are extreme cases out there. I stay away I understand that it hurts me to get angry, but I can't actually say that I had any role to play in this other than being the Grandson she doesn't like (heck I never even figured out why she didn't like me).

A philosophy of your just hurting yourself is fine and good but I don't live that way and I can't justify every emotion being my fault, I already figure most everything is my fault but sometimes things or people just happen that are out of the norm. That's why I am ok with the philosophy of it but it is really hard to put it into context for every person's life. I normally revert to the "fire hurts, must avoid the fire" philosophy in life.

 

[jgbrowning]

What it was about me that made me so angry......well it was the fact that I didn't kill her. I understand where you are comming from and what you are saying but if a person wants to make you angry then eventually they will find a way. What made me get so angry was the same thing that makes everybody get angry when somebody insults you every way they know how while acting like she is trying to give you advice, then gets upset with you for questioning her judgement in belittling you, then if you get past that she decides that you are not showing her enough attention or respect so she finds another way to insult you.

Joe B. advice in dealing with people like this.

Dogs bark. I cannot get angry at a dog that barks.
She's a b------. I cannot get angry at a person who's a b----.

See, the dog's a really really really good dog. I could never be nearly as good a dog as that dog is. That's a perfect dog. There is no other dog more doggish than that dog, i tell ya......

She's a b----. I can never ever ever be nearly as good a b---- as that. That's one perfect B----!



If you can't do that. Don't see her. Ever. Never. Just say no and keep saying no and you won't have to see her. No one makes you see her. If she comes over while you're at the families house, leave. If you see her somewhere else leave. You may make the rest of your family angry, but they only have two choices as well.

They can stay angry with you forever, or they can get over it. They'll get over it.

joe b.

 

[barsoomcore]

I can be very considerate of people and be a big defender of a underdog, but in the end I'm a ass and I know it.

Yeah, yeah. You and Socrates, dude.

A jerk to one is not a jerk to all. The qualities you keep listing off don't sound jerkish at all to me.

But hey, I'm not here to convince you of anything. We can agree to disagree on that, I'm sure.

What it was about me that made me so angry......well it was the fact that I didn't kill her.

Have you ever read The Uses Of Enchantment by Bruno Bettleheim (I might have the name wrong)? It's a psychology book about why fairy tales exist and why they are traditionally read or told to children.

Bruno's theory is that children experience all sorts of emotions, often terrible emotions. Emotions they know are wrong but don't have enough experience to control or direct appropriately. Fairy tales allow them to vicariously live out these horrible desires without hurting anyone.

Children want to murder their parents. They just do. There comes a time in any child's life where they want to cut their parent's heads off. They know it's wrong but they feel it anyway. They don't know what to do.

So they read Hansel and Gretel and join in excited delight as the children push the witch (their figurative mother) into the oven. Hurrah! We burned Mommy alive! Yay! The kids get to act out their horrid desires and Mommy's still there to tuck them into bed. Bruno reckons that having such avenues for living out these desires is part of a normal childhood.

The point is that it's perfectly natural to want to kill your kin and to feel frustration at your inability to do so. I have no trouble believing that you are angry because you are unable to kill your grandmother. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I understand where you are comming from and what you are saying but if a person wants to make you angry then eventually they will find a way.

But you will have to let them. You will have to go along with them enough to be made angry.

What made me get so angry was the same thing that makes everybody get angry when somebody insults you every way they know how while acting like she is trying to give you advice, then gets upset with you for questioning her judgement in belittling you, then if you get past that she decides that you are not showing her enough attention or respect so she finds another way to insult you.

You wouldn't have gotten angry, I suggest, unless she was successful in finding issues you feel badly about. Poking you where it hurts. Finding your weaknesses and attacking them. Some people are very good at this sort of thing.

I didn't feel bad about myself or have any problems with myself that made me angry when I showed up, heck if she couldn't find a true insult she would just make something up.

I don't mean any offense but I am compelled to suggest that most of us feel bad about something or other about ourselves. Most of us have problems with ourselves, issues that we haven't dealt with or anxieties that we've suppressed. I do, anyway. And I usually find when someone has made me angry that they're poked me right in one of those spots.

I understand what you are saying but for me it doesn't work at that level, I don't blame her for it, she is what she is but I know that there was no problem with me that I was imposing on what she said or did, she sat out to make me angry, it was her goal everytime I was around.

I'm not trying to say she isn't a cow. All I'm saying is that the fact that she was able to make you angry says that there is within you something that she can turn to her purposes. If you can find it, figure out what it is and deal with it, she won't be able to hurt you anymore.

It is a extreme example but there are extreme cases out there.

Hey, I didn't say this happens sometimes. I said it was ALWAYS TRUE. I mean that. This isn't just good advice. This is a law of human behaviour. I haven't found many so I get excited about the ones I do find. So bring on the extreme examples. If my law doesn't apply to EVERYTHING it's not a law.

(heck I never even figured out why she didn't like me)

Well, obviously it's because you're such a jerk. You said so yourself.

Meaning absolutely no offense whatsoever. Just having fun with your determination to be badly thought of. Which I respect, by the way.

A philosophy of your just hurting yourself is fine and good but I don't live that way and I can't justify every emotion being my fault, I already figure most everything is my fault but sometimes things or people just happen that are out of the norm.

It's not a question of fault. Fault doesn't enter into it. It's a question of "How can I stop this? How can I keep this from affecting me?"

That's why I am ok with the philosophy of it but it is really hard to put it into context for every person's life. I normally revert to the "fire hurts, must avoid the fire" philosophy in life.

Sure it's hard. And easy, of course, which is the really annoying bit.

 

[barsoomcore]

Regardless of circumstance, regardless of "reasons," regardless of situation, regardless of "reality," the only choice I ever really make is...

Happy or sad.

I heard that.

I think the world is perfect and all things are perfect. Even the bad ones.

I'm not sure I hold with this view. Not so much because I disagree with it but because I'm not sure it's something I need to believe in order to make my worldview hang together. If that makes sense.

I mean, perfect or not, it is what it is. There's no point in railing about it because it's not what you WANT it to be. Understand it for what it is, understand yourself for what you are, and it all falls into place. Or not. What place? What's it? Who am I?

None of these are important questions.

What's for dinner? Now THERE'S a question that matters.

I have a lovely book on Zen philosophy. One of the ideas of Zen is that of satori -- which is usually translated as "enlightenment". Many stories tell of people who experience satori in a sudden flash of inspiration and find their whole experience of the world changed.

In this book there's a comment by a Zen master about satori. He says: "Before satori, there is only the hewing of wood and the drawing of water. After satori, Ah! There is now the hewing of wood and the drawing of water."

If that doesn't make you laugh, I think you need to think more about it. I guess it's funnier if you've read some Zen philosophy, but I think it's funny under any circumstances.

 

[jgbrowning]

I mean, perfect or not, it is what it is. There's no point in railing about it because it's not what you WANT it to be. Understand it for what it is, understand yourself for what you are, and it all falls into place. Or not. What place? What's it? Who am I?

Thats why i think its perfect. I find it hard to accept that anything that is is not (perfect). Nature's perfect. It's perfectly what it is and no more. I think we agree in a roundabout-sideways way...

As to Zen. Zen.. that was alway to hard for me... Zen was always the old guy who said, "You already know, you know," and then hit me with a stick!

here's my funny story....

A follower of a guru finally understands what his teacher has been saying for years. He knows he is part of everything and everything is part of him. He hears of an elephant rampaging in a village and he goes to send the elephant away.

On his way to the village he meets a man who says, "Stay away! The elephant is mad!" But the student continues on, for he knows that the elephant is him and he'll make it stop when he gets there.

Outside the village he meets another man who says, "Flee for your life! The elephant has killed three!" But the student persevears and enters the village. He walks calmly up to the elephant. The elephant throws him around with his trunk and gores him badly and leaves.

The master shows up, calms the elephant, and walks over to the student. "Master, I don't understand. I am the Elephant."

The master replies, "You are also the two men who told you to flee."

joe b.

 

[jdavis]

Joe B. advice in dealing with people like this.

Dogs bark. I cannot get angry at a dog that barks.
She's a b------. I cannot get angry at a person who's a b----.

See, the dog's a really really really good dog. I could never be nearly as good a dog as that dog is. That's a perfect dog. There is no other dog more doggish than that dog, i tell ya......

She's a b----. I can never ever ever be nearly as good a b---- as that. That's one perfect B----!



If you can't do that. Don't see her. Ever. Never. Just say no and keep saying no and you won't have to see her. No one makes you see her. If she comes over while you're at the families house, leave. If you see her somewhere else leave. You may make the rest of your family angry, but they only have two choices as well.

They can stay angry with you forever, or they can get over it. They'll get over it.

joe b.

I have the comfort of family understanding, I have not been her only target for this crap, she is old and bitter and the whole family knows it.

 

[jgbrowning]

I have the comfort of family understanding, I have not been her only target for this crap, she is old and bitter and the whole family knows it.

That's always a great relief. Things are always hard if you have fight with your family.

joe b.