Who "Owns" Old PC's?

[jdavis]

To say that I think you are wrong on this point would be a hideous understatement. To say what I think about this would risk the thread getting (rightly) closed. So I shall simply say that it is clear you and I have nothing of value to say to each other.

Your commentary also gives me ample reason not to waste my time spelling out my perspective any more than I already have. You are not going to 'get it' any more than I can comprehend the mindset that would come up with this as a universal statement.

Kahuna Burger

You seem to be taking this personal. I don't agree with the statement either but I realize that it is a quite common view, to each their own and whatever works for that person. It is definatly not a statement that should generate anger.

 

[barsoomcore]

To say that I think you are wrong on this point would be a hideous understatement. To say what I think about this would risk the thread getting (rightly) closed. So I shall simply say that it is clear you and I have nothing of value to say to each other.

I am sorry to hear that. Indeed, I felt we were beginning a discussion of some interest. I am sorry to hear that the only way you can respond to my opinions is by foul language. I didn't mean to provoke such a response, and I hope you don't think I'm trying to be rude or deliberately provocative. Is it that your opinion of me personally is such that it could only be expressed through insults? Well, you don't have to state your opinion of me, you know.

You disagree. That's fine. I'd like to know why, and what you think is the true case of the matter, regardless of what your feelings about me are. How do you describe anger? What do you think causes it and what are our choices in so far as controlling it?

You may think that what you have to say is of no value to me, but I assure you you are incorrect. I value your opinion very much. Perhaps you do not value mine, which of course is your own perogative.

Your commentary also gives me ample reason not to waste my time spelling out my perspective any more than I already have. You are not going to 'get it' any more than I can comprehend the mindset that would come up with this as a universal statement.

Once again you simply dismiss without discussion. It seems as though you are determined to avoid outlining your arguments. I'm sorry you feel that talking with me is wasting your time.

I remain honestly curious as to your opinions and the reasoning from which you derived them. If at any time you want to discuss them, I hope my presence in this thread will not deter you.

And if I have been offensive in my conduct, please let me know. It was not my intent and I would willingly apologize for any offense I may have caused.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

You seem to be taking this personal. I don't agree with the statement either but I realize that it is a quite common view, to each their own and whatever works for that person. It is definatly not a statement that should generate anger.

By making it a universal statement, "Here's a true funny notion: ... It is a refusal to face your own failings, which causes you to blame someone else." {emphasis added} rather than an individual one, it was made personal for me. It was not made as a "to each their own, whatever works" statement, it was a third party diagnosis of every other person on the planet. Obviously whether any comment "should generate anger" begs the question of this entire subthread, so I won't address it. It did however, generate a lack of interest in further communication.

Kahuna Burger

 

[barsoomcore]

I find all this interesting because the control everyone here has talked about (regardless of their methods or which side of the arguement they are on) is something fundamentally lacking in me, it's like a faucet that you can never turn all the way off. Embracing my emotions and not fighting against them was for survival, I can get myself worked up to the point where I am in true danger of having a stroke over very minor things, so instead I just ride it out, people who know me know to never take it personal.

But don't you see that by "riding it out" you are in fact controlling it? That you have taught yourself to embrace your emotions and thereby reduce the degree to which they screw up your life? You ARE controlling your emotions, I assure you. It doesn't look like it from the inside, I'm sure, but I bet people who know you remark on how you've learned to cope.

"Man, remember when you were a kid and you beat the snot out of that other kid? You've sure relaxed a lot since then."

Just by your posts here on this thread it's become clear that you have a pretty relaxed, "live and let live" policy which speaks strongly against the notion that you are at the mercy of your emotions.

And I bet you'll find, if you haven't already, that the more you engage in this "embrace and extend" behaviour, the more your immediate reactions become calmer and more rational.

Emotions are LEARNED behaviour. They are of course influenced by biology but we learn how to express those biological changes and environmental stimulus through emotions. And we can learn new emotional responses -- indeed, that's exactly what you are doing, and I suggest that you're going about it in just the right way.

You can't just turn off your emotions. Not without long and thoughtful examination of yourself and your reasons for your behaviour. So much of what we do is controlled subconsciously that in order to change we have to explore ourselves very deeply. But if we explore and understand, we are capable of changing.

(the dog, {60 pound lab/chow mix}, is fine by the way, and well house broken now too)

I'm glad to hear it.

Lab/chow? That's gotta be one tubby dog.

 

[barsoomcore]

By making it a universal statement, "Here's a true funny notion: ... It is a refusal to face your own failings, which causes you to blame someone else." {emphasis added} rather than an individual one, it was made personal for me. It was not made as a "to each their own, whatever works" statement, it was a third party diagnosis of every other person on the planet.

Yes, that's correct. I believe this is true of everyone on the planet, including you. I believe that when you, Kahuna Burger, get angry at someone else, you are in fact angry with yourself. If that makes you angry, er, then I guess I think that statement for some reason makes you angry with yourself.

I am not a psychologist, nor a religious or philosophical expert, and my ideas are based on nothing more than my own experience. As I have said, I am interested in your ideas on the subject.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Yes, that's correct. I believe this is true of everyone on the planet, including you. I believe that when you, Kahuna Burger, get angry at someone else, you are in fact angry with yourself. If that makes you angry, er, then I guess I think that statement for some reason makes you angry with yourself.

I am not a psychologist, nor a religious or philosophical expert, and my ideas are based on nothing more than my own experience. As I have said, I am interested in your ideas on the subject.

You cannot presume to tell a person how their feelings work, from a position of no knowlege and then expect them to take you seriously when you say "I am interested in your ideas on the subject". I do not take your seriously when you say it, as you have given me no reason to.

More to the point, the reason I will not engage you has nothing to do with needing to resort to insults or any such bunk. Like most people I have heard put forth on these views, you have introduced an idea in very vauge, non threatening terms that can best be rebutted by bring up very socially and politically contentious issues. I will not drag this thread into a debate on levels of sexual assualt, nor put myself through the emotional proccess of spelling out other recent anger inducing events in which I can clearly say I was not angry at myself in the slightest. This messageboard is not the place, and you are not worth it. Its that simple.

Kahuna Burger

 

[jgbrowning]

You can't just turn off your emotions. Not without long and thoughtful examination of yourself and your reasons for your behaviour. So much of what we do is controlled subconsciously that in order to change we have to explore ourselves very deeply. But if we explore and understand, we are capable of changing.

This of course leads one to wonder, "Can we just "turn off" our emotions?"

I think so. I think it is very hard, and most people who think they're doing it probably aren't because i don't think its so much an "effort of the moment" as much as it is an continual effort.

Here's my train 'o thought.

If i feel angery at an action and spend several years learning to not feel angry at at action and then i reach a point where the action no longer "triggers" the angry emotion, i have effectivly turned off an emotion. Abeit only for that single action/emotion connection. Like the guy cutting me off in traffic action not even illicting an emotional response.

This makes me think that, since i can effectivly not feel emotions based upon choice and will, that there's a good chance this concept can be taken further.

Say i don't want to feel angry anymore. At anything. Well given enough time i think that the actual emotion of anger will dissapate because, as i term it, "im no longer feeding the monster."

I kinda view anger like a pig. Pigs root around the soil and make a big mess and then they move on when there isn't any more food to be found. I try to not provide any food to begin with to my "anger pig!" so he doesn't "visit" as often and when he does its only for a short while. Hopefully, he'll just give up and move along.

In essense, very few things make me angry, (people feeling justified in hurting others is one of them), and i'm trying to reduce, on a daily basis/effort of will, the number of things that make me angry. And it works. Me 6 years ago and me today are almost completely different people. My wife didn't even recognize a picture of me from college, and i haven't physically changed (cept for a bit less hair now.. . It was my eyes. They're not my eyes anymore.



joe b.

 

[jdavis]

"Man, remember when you were a kid and you beat the snot out of that other kid? You've sure relaxed a lot since then."

Actually I was the shy quiet kid who kept to himself and didn't bother anyone, (you know the same discription the serial killers neighbors always give). I'm viewed as a ass by most of my friends, and I'm ok with that, heck I even agree. The big thing is that I have learned the wonderful skill of "get over it". I didn't want my bad past to ruin my future so I learned to let things go regardless of whose fault it was, you can only carry anger so far before it starts to become a load. I have problems with all emotions not just anger, I'm sure most people didn't cry during Conan the Barbarian. Having the blood pressure problems helped to, I spent a little time on anti-depressants (even though I wasn't actually depressed) and the blood pressure medication tends to take it out of you too. And when the Doctor says stop it or you will die, you start to look at how to stop it.

This of course leads one to wonder, "Can we just "turn off" our emotions?"

I don't think you can turn them off, but you can distance yourself from them. This question brings up the question Do you wnat to turn off your emotions? I like the bad emotions too, I feed off of strong emotion good or bad. I try not to place any blame on anyone but after a full blown eruption I feel better, sometimes screaming at a mirror can be very theraputic for me.(warning don't hit the mirror, that isn't very theraputic it just hurts later and gets blood all over the place.)

 

[jdavis]

By making it a universal statement, "Here's a true funny notion: ... It is a refusal to face your own failings, which causes you to blame someone else." {emphasis added} rather than an individual one, it was made personal for me. It was not made as a "to each their own, whatever works" statement, it was a third party diagnosis of every other person on the planet. Obviously whether any comment "should generate anger" begs the question of this entire subthread, so I won't address it. It did however, generate a lack of interest in further communication.

Kahuna Burger

I missed the "true" in there. I took it as a opinion piece. I didn't mean to question your lack of a want to reply just the tone used. If I had took it to be stated as actual fact instead of a theoretical statemet of belief then I would of found the tone used called for, I just didn't see it that way. As a statement of how things work it is just not true as a statement of philosophy it's ok.

Here I'll give a example of how this fails for me. I don't like one of my Grandmothers (my Mom's mother), ok don't like isn't near bad enough, I hate the woman's guts and will go to her funeral and smile at the corpse. She is a white trash piece of crap who doesn't know when to keep her nose out of other people's buisness and who has done several things to make me believe she is a pox on all of humanity, I won't get into any specifics. I don't hate myself for hating her, I am not taking my bad feelings about myself out on her, I don't feel that it is in any way my fault, it just isn't. I tried to be nice to the woman and she said things that should never be said (at Christmas, in front of my young children about their mother, once again no specifics but feel free to fill in the blanks, they can't be as bad as what did happen) That was just one of many different things that happened. The only thing I ever felt guilty or mad about was going to see her, so now I don't (my Mother's doctor told my mother to not see her anymore due to the affect interacting with her had on her blood pressure.). There was absolutely no way you can find to put any of the anger in me, you can in no way say I was projecting my own feelings in the case, she is just a , well I can't say that here. My was of dealing with this wasn't to ignore her or to think I was hurting myself by getting upset, the woman worked hard to get under your skin, you could not help yourself but get angry. I just stopped going around and I let it be known to the family in general that I was done with her for the rest of our lives. I don't get mad anymore I don't worry about it anymore I just stay away. Yes the anger was hurting me but it wasn't my fault, she initiated it she continued it and she is still trying to get crap going (heck I don't even know why). The only fault that was mine was being around her to start with.

 

[barsoomcore]

You cannot presume to tell a person how their feelings work, from a position of no knowlege and then expect them to take you seriously when you say "I am interested in your ideas on the subject". I do not take your seriously when you say it, as you have given me no reason to.

Except for the fact that I have responded to your posts with as much attention and intelligence I can muster. If that's not taking you seriously, I don't know what is. I note that you have attempted to dismiss my ideas without discussion at every turn, while I have at least attempted to engage with your ideas and express my understanding of what you have said. What should someone do if they want to give you a reason to take them seriously?

I can presume to tell anyone anything I like. It's up to them to agree or disagree. Why can't I tell you what I think about how your emotions work? If I'm obviously wrong, show me how. It should be simple.

I believe I have considered your statements carefully and have put forth my views as clearly as I can. I have certain ideas about the way human emotions work and I think they're true. I went ahead and posted those ideas. Anyone who disagrees is more than welcome to explain why they think my ideas are wrong. I like being proven wrong. It tells me I'm learning.

This is how conversation works, as far as I know. Fred puts forth an idea and George responds, either by pointing out flaws or by putting forth a contending idea. I don't believe I'm ignoring the laws of polite society in what I'm doing, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Like most people I have heard put forth on these views, you have introduced an idea in very vauge, non threatening terms that can best be rebutted by bring up very socially and politically contentious issues.

Surely the best way to rebut my ideas is to point out the logical flaws in them? I'm sorry if I was vague. I will attempt to be more clear.

When people express anger towards others, what they are doing is displacing their anger and frustration with themselves. Rather than acknowledge their own failings they seek to lay blame, whether upon another person or society or what have you. Anger is a process of blame, which is necessarily a process involving moral judgement. And making moral judgements is a way to make ourselves feel better without having to make ourselves better people.

This has nothing to do with why bad things happen to us. I am not suggesting that it is a person's fault when something terrible happens to them. Nor am I suggesting that people who do bad things are somehow not responsible. All I am saying is that when you feel yourself growing angry with someone, the healthiest thing to do is to examine your own actions and feelings and question why you are feeling this way, and if there isn't perhaps something within yourself that is making you feel this way.

My experience has absolutely convinced me that my displays of anger are always motivated from a desire to avoid considering myself or some quality of myself. Whether to avoid considering my own helplessness in the face of some tragedy, or how some incredibly annoying fellow reminds me of traits I wish I didn't possess, I have always found it to be the case. In the people that I have observed, I have always found it to be the case. I have not come across a single instance in which it was not the case, and so I have come to consider it a truth.

An important truth, and one that I think leads to powerful insights into oneself. The question of "What is it about ME that is making me so angry right now?" will always have an answer that is worth listening to. Even when you're raging at the photocopier.

I will not drag this thread into a debate on levels of sexual assualt, nor put myself through the emotional proccess of spelling out other recent anger inducing events in which I can clearly say I was not angry at myself in the slightest. This messageboard is not the place, and you are not worth it. Its that simple.

Well, if you can clearly say so, then it must be true. Why not just say so?

Oh right, I'm not worth it. Well, my mom likes me. In any event, I reiterate: the question "What is it about ME that is making me so angry right now?" is always worth asking oneself. That's really all I wanted to say.