Who was right

[Moff_Tarkin]

I had and interesting argument with some of the members of my group. At fist my side of the argument may seem ridiculous, but when you think about it, I am probably right.

There is a group of evil bad guys that the party is fighting. During the final confrontation with this group, one of them sunders my +5 tower shield, a 25,000 gold piece item. After picking my jaw up off the floor I said, “By any civilized law this guy, or his group, owes me 25,000 gold pieces. There isn’t a judge in the land that would rule otherwise. So remember that when we kill these guys, 25,000 of their gold is not theirs but mine.”

From every angle my logic make sense. From the first angle, if someone breaks one of my 25,000 gold piece items, a civilized court would rule that the offender now owes me 25,000 gold. That’s the also the same ruling any court in our real life modern world would make.

And lets look at it from another angle. Lets say one member of the group of bad guys the party is after is a rouge. One night, he sneaks into the Inn the party is staying at and steals the fighter’s +1 flaming sword. When the party finally beats the evil group and loots their bodies and their lair they find a +1 flaming sword, the same one stolen from the fighter in fact. Now would any party thow this in to the “party treasure” pile. Of course not, they would hand it back to the fighter. So, didn’t the guys who sundered my +5 shield effectively steal 25,000 gold from me? When we loot the lair isn’t 25,000 gold of that treasure mine?

I have made my case. Does anyone still agree with the logic of the party? The one that puts more money in their pockets. The one that ignores the fact that I walked out of the “final battle” with worse than I walked in with.

 

[blargney the second]

How lawful is your character?

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

Uh, funny you should ask that. I am a paladin. But I was acting in the way "I" thought was lawful and just. Of course "lawful justice" in any game is whatever the DM thinks it is. And no two people completely agree on that kind of thing

 

[Kheti sa-Menik]

Honestly, losing items in the heat of combat is a risk that PCs take waking up in the morning. You present two different situations.

The flaming sword thing: the sword was stolen by the bad guys and recovered from the bad guys - clear cut.

Your shield was lost as a result of the engagement with the enemy. In the heat of combat, the enemy destroyed it.

What a court, medieval or modern, would do is entirely irrelevant.

You took the weapon (shield) into combat. In combat, there's always a risk to life, limb, and property.

Now, my question is: is the bad guys' treasure going to be divided up amongst the PCs like most normal D&D adventures end? Or do the PCs have to turn over dead/unconscious bad guys and all their gear to the authorities?

If the situation is the former, your party should object to you taking 25k in cash/saleables off the top before dividing the rest up. You aren't owed the value of the shield any more than a wizard is owed spell component costs/foci costs/etc.
Now, you could ASK the party if they are willing to do so. If you lay out a compelling argument and the party agrees, they might be willing to follow your advice and give you the 25K, but you are certainly not OWED anything. Sometimes, in combat, bad things happen.
It's just a shield, look on the bright side - your PC could have taken the hit.

If the situation was the latter, that bodies/captives are turned over along with all their gear, then ALL gear goes to the authorities or the gear gets divided up and you lie to the authorities. But you don't automatically get something, if you get 25k worth, the other PCs get equal value.

 

[Starglim]

If the bad guy survived, he would certainly be liable for recklessly damaging your stuff. When he is dead, all his possessions pass into the party's ownership to be divided according to party agreement. He no longer has any assets to pass on to his heirs, give to charity, clear his mortgage, pay his bill with the fishmonger, or pay you.

Certainly you could have made a prior agreement that any of your magic items that got damaged would be replaced by party funds. Maybe you should have thought of that.

 

[Greylock]

Well, fist off, I'd suggest that if you kill the bad guy, his debt to you is dissolved. Unless you think a life is worth 25,000 GP, and I'd certainly love to hear of you trying that in any court, civil or criminal. Fantasy preferably, but if you got this on Court TV, I'd watch.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

Not all the PCs disagreed with me. Certainly not the monk who lost a 10,000 GP permanent enchantment. I defended his right for payback as well. And one player actually handed me and the monk a nice chunk of change after, while I was making my argument, a look of enlightenment came over him and he said. “You know what? I think he may actually be right.”

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

So most would agree that this bad guy did owe me a debt. The thing is a that killing him does not absolve the debt. A life is not worth 25,000 gold. A life is worth diddly, unless you're rich or someone rich cares about you.

Lets assume someone stole your car. Lets assume I shot him in self defense becouse he tried to run me over as he made his escape. Lets assume the real world has the same loot the bad guy rules as a RPG. Do I get you car as part of the bad guy loot. What the guy had just totaled your car and a court ruled he owed you $20,000, and when I kill him I find $50,000 in his pocket. Wouldent you demand half of that?

 

[blargney the second]

If you're a lawful character, then it's entirely in keeping to argue for anything you want from a legal standpoint. (But it doesn't necessarily mean you're right, and I'd fully expect chaotic characters to take exception.)

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

Now to counter some more arguments in my defense.

Comparing my shield to the material components used by a wizard or the magical arrows used by the archer is a false analogy. Those items are meant to be expendable. A magical shield is meant to be a permanent item. Now I know someone will say “But your shield can be broken” Well yes anything can be broken/lost. That doesn’t change the fact that spell components and arrows are expendable items and magical armor is considered a permanent item. Also, for some spell components, like the pearls for identify, the party will pull their gold to give to the wizard.

My analogy to the +1 flaming sword stolen from the fighter holds true. They stole 25,000 gold from me by breaking my shield. That’s not just “the risk you take” What kind of a jerk would say that. If I run you off the road and total your car, then yell out the window “that’s just the risk you take when you get on the highway.” And drive off, aren’t I a big jerk, and dont I owe you for car repairs?