Why 4e is a good thing (even if you hate it)

[Kafen]

<Sigh>... I neither need to read Mr. Slaviscek's mind because PC quoted what he thought right there in his post, nor do I need to read the mind of Ryan Dancey, who has written many, many times about the intended effect of WotC's open gaming initiatives. Here's a good example right here.

Pertinent quote:

Emphasis mine.

You could also trace it back to the Envoy system and IP issues with Palladium back in the early 90s. WOTC almost went under as I recall. The "open" license could well be a direct result of that whole affair. Personally, I never did get into the boycott panic at the time, but I know one of my die hard DND friends is still pretty sure that Palladium is out to get him because of it. I know both companies avoid mentioning the case - it was a lose/lose bit of history.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Count me as one who thinks that- despite my dislike of 4Ed- things are pretty good and diverse in the hobby.

While there may not be as many RPGs on the market as in the days of 2Ed, IMHO, there have never been as many high-quality game systems with such high production values on the market.

Most of that change occurred on 3.X's watch when they turned GURPS' licensing practices on their head with the OGL. Many game companies joined on to the mighty 3.X train and had a nice ride that included some nifty alterations to the underlying system.

What 4Ed did, though, was 2 fold. According to the sales figures, it brought a LOT of new gamers to the hobby.

In addition the rift in the D&D community that its release caused- at first blush a bad thing- has turned out to be quite good. It made good game designers realize that they didn't necessarily have to continue to hitch their wagon to WotC's latest & greatest to have continued success. The 3.X engine is still humming- its derivatives are still a viable force in the market.

 

[rounser]

It's possible we'd have moved into other games anyway, but I doon't think so. Something about 4E and the fallout gave us all the hankerin' to play other genres.

I agree, and think it has left a void in the RPG landscape that something else needs to fill. For me, 4E has damaged the D&D brand so much that it has removed D&D's current edition status as the default "go to" system, and has brought many negative associations with the D&D name that just weren't there before.

 

[bagger245]

For our group, the announcement of 4E gave me a chance to pull out try all the other systems I'd purchased but never got to playing. We eventually settled on WoD for our current system of choice. I certainly wouldn't mind going back to D&D, but my own personal preference would put 4E on the bottom of the heap for what version I would choose.

Same here. I used to think d20 was the one system to rule em all. When 4e came out, I started looking at other rpgs and it was a breath of fresh air.

 

[Jhaelen]

<Sigh>... I neither need to read Mr. Slaviscek's mind because PC quoted what he thought right there in his post, nor do I need to read the mind of Ryan Dancey, who has written many, many times about the intended effect of WotC's open gaming initiatives.

Wow, I don't think I've ever read anything positive from this Mr. Dancey person.

Thanks for the link.

I wonder if everyone at WotC back then was fully behind Dancey's ideas and reasoning?
I'm slightly doubtful.

If so, has there been a change of opinion?
I should think so.

But maybe the strength of the D&D brand has been a direct effect of the OGL intermezzo.

 

[bouncyhead]

Same here. I used to think d20 was the one system to rule em all. When 4e came out, I started looking at other rpgs and it was a breath of fresh air.

Our group has had a slightly different experience: We're pretty much lazy, beer and crisps, old skool d&ders and have rarely strayed outside 'core' for 30 years (except maybe a dash of Arduin back in the day).

For us, the release of 4E has left us with a slightly giddy sense of freedom. The game itself turned out not to be for us, but we have happily stolen elements from it (e.g. PP, 'bloodied') and plugged in to our 3.5 (now Pathfinder) game and I'm now considering which Trailblazer elements to plug in. IOW 4E declared an end to 'canon' for our D&D game. PF feels more 'ours' to tinker with, challenge and customize.


So yes, 4E = good thing (for us!).

PS - there's a danger this idea is overblown, and I know there are a zillion playstyles out there, but the more I read these boards, the more I get the sense that pre-4E there were two loose groups of d&ders, with differing preferences, forced to cohabit the same system. 4E has released the pressure in that regard. So again 4E = good thing (for us!).

 

[Stormonu]

Our group has had a slightly different experience: We're pretty much lazy, beer and crisps, old skool d&ders and have rarely strayed outside 'core' for 30 years (except maybe a dash of Arduin back in the day).

For us, the release of 4E has left us with a slightly giddy sense of freedom. The game itself turned out not to be for us, but we have happily stolen elements from it (e.g. PP, 'bloodied') and plugged in to our 3.5 (now Pathfinder) game and I'm now considering which Trailblazer elements to plug in. IOW 4E declared an end to 'canon' for our D&D game. PF feels more 'ours' to tinker with, challenge and customize.

I found something similar. I hadn't realized it, but during 3E, I'd become a real rules lawyer and stickler for using the rules as written. When I started branching out into different games - which often had "fuzzier" rules - I saw what sort of box I'd been putting myself into and started playing with the systems to customize them to my taste, stealing elements from other games or editions where I felt I needed them.

 

[N0Man]

Well, I think all those folks who enjoy GURPS and White Wolf and so many other games will have more than a little trouble with this basic premise.

We don't have any real numbers on market penetration for any of these games. However, I don't expect 4e has substantially increased the market share for non-D&D games. d20 still dominates the market.

That's neglecting the fact that D&D has often been a gateway game too. D&D was my first RPG, but when I learned about other games I became very interested in trying others too.

When I was a teen, that meant games like ElfQuest, which drew me to other Chaossium games like Call of Cthulhu and Rune Quest.

Then I wanted to dabbled in some Hero and Champions.

I got out of tabletop RPGs for several years, but 4E brought me back in, which has again led me to interest in other games such as Spirit of the Century and Savage Worlds.

Just because D&D may be a leader, doesn't mean that there isn't some spillover that wouldn't have existed at all if not for people playing D&D in the first place.

Of course, this is an example extrapolated from personal experience of myself and my friends, but I doubt we're the only ones brought in and kept in the hobby by D&D.

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't know if I would really include WoD because it was a new edition to an already existing game. Not really a "new" system...

It's actually as different from the Storyteller system as 4th edition is different from 2nd edition.

You roll dice, and count successes, and that is where the similarities end. How many dice, what the target for success is, and how it translates into gameplay are all so completely different that it's an entirely different game.

 

[amerigoV]

I found something similar. I hadn't realized it, but during 3E, I'd become a real rules lawyer and stickler for using the rules as written. When I started branching out into different games - which often had "fuzzier" rules - I saw what sort of box I'd been putting myself into and started playing with the systems to customize them to my taste, stealing elements from other games or editions where I felt I needed them.

Same here! You summed up my d20 experience perfectly. I have moved on to Savage Worlds and it has opened a whole new style of gaming to me, including the willingness to try different genres. I do like 4e, but it was clear that the it was not a good fit with the people I game. No hard feelings, but I gotta game ya see!

Funny, I am experiencing the same thing in video games. I just gave up the WarCrack at the beginning of February. I suddenly found all those XBOX games I have gotten for the last couple of Xmas/Bdays in a pile that I had not even opened cuz I was too busy raiding/doing dailies.

Sometimes, you just gotta make a change.