D&D 4E Why 4E?

[Melkor]

But seriously, if wotc came out with 4.0e tomorrow would it really make a huge difference to your game? Aren't there enough books out there to play an amazingly rich Dnd game for the rest of your life! I've been operating off of solely the core books and one or two other books here and there for years now and my games are imaginative and a blast to play!

I was talking about this very thing with my gaming group yesterday. There is SO MUCH out there for 3.5, and it works well enough, that there would never be a need to make a change to a new edition, and you could still play a lifetime of campaigns.

I always had some issues with the original editions which were handled with house rules, but 3rd edition was enough of a change to make us want to try it out. The 3.5 games I have been involved in don't have enough major issues to warrant moving to a completely new edition. If there are some major innovations, or improvements (which in my opinion would be no easy task for the designers of 4th edition), there might be a reason to change, but I just don't see the need.

Of course some people will change just because the new edition will be the "currently supported edition".

 

[Crothian]

Other games have revisions and people don't think a thing about it. But D&D has a history of sweeping revisions that annoy whole segments of players, so after 30 years people are paranoid.

I remember the flame wars on e-mails lists when White Wolf revised their WoD, I'm not talkign aobut the big one in 2004, but the smaller revisions in the 90's. I remeber the same thing happening on a smaller scale since it is a smaller game when Palladium did Heros Unlimited second edtion. When a new edition comes out, usually there is a percentage of the people playing that relaly don't like it. But since all games are smaller then D&D, it is harder to hear the people complaining.

 

[Akrasia]

Am I the only one who never bought the marketing use of "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS" for the d20 system? To me, "3e" was d20 Fantasy 1st editon . . . "3.5" is d20 Fantasy 2nd edition.

I agree ... but pointing this out will just get people around here very annoyed with you. (It is just not worth it to note that 3e has more in common with Rolemaster and Ars Magica than O/AD&D.)

 

[Umbran]

Unfortunately, the appearance of 3.5e -- just three years after the Third Edition launch -- prompted fan expectation that a new version is due to show up in 2006, about three years after the release of 3.5e.

Yes. Unfortunately, while everybody knows that two points make a line, they also somehow get it stuck in their heads that two events make a trend.

Also, 4e gets talked about a lot because many people here like to theorize and speculate. And a new edition is a framework on which one can hang speculations.

I agree ...

I don't, at least insofar as the edition numbering is concerned. Even if we consider 3e to really be a 1st edition of d20 Fantasy, the changes in 3.5e really dont' make it a 2nd edition of d20 Fantasy.

(It is just not worth it to note that 3e has more in common with Rolemaster and Ars Magica than O/AD&D.)

Oh, then why did you note it here? Honestly, this phrasing is like the old "I don't want to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong, but..." If you want to say it, just say it and be done with it.

As to the similarities - you might (or might not) have a reasonable argument that mechanically 3e is closer to other games than it's origins. But there's much more to a game than the mechanics. Theme and style and trappings are terribly important. And on that score, 3e is still prety close to its roots. I really doubt many folks would claim that, in play, 3e is much at all like Ars Magica.

 

[Akrasia]

Oh, then why did you note it here? Honestly, this phrasing is like the old "I don't want to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong, but..." If you want to say it, just say it and be done with it.

My apologies. I guess I didn't want to threadjack (and hence left the comment in parantheses ... not that that prevented someone from being upset by them).

As to the similarities - you might (or might not) have a reasonable argument that mechanically 3e is closer to other games than it's origins. But there's much more to a game than the mechanics. Theme and style and trappings are terribly important. And on that score, 3e is still prety close to its roots...

I couldn't disagree more. Having run two 3e campaigns now, IME it feels a lot more like 2e Rolemaster (which I played a bit in the mid/late 1980s) than any version of pre-3e D&D. The main difference is that 3e requires more bookkeeping but fewer charts.

 

[Umbran]

I guess I didn't want to threadjack

Just call it "topic drift", and nobody'll be the wiser

I couldn't disagree more. Having run two 3e campaigns now, IME it feels a lot more like 2e Rolemaster (which I played a bit in the mid/late 1980s) than any version of pre-3e D&D. The main difference is that 3e requires more bookkeeping but fewer charts.

Well, for my money the overall game feel really didn't change much from 2e. We swapped a game from 2e to 3e and flavor-wise didn't really notice the difference. Our game went on exactly as before, but more smoothly.

And while perhaps you don't find them intrusive, for many folks charts are a pretty big thing that radically change the feel/flow of gameplay.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

There's a noticable trend in gamer circles to be suspicious of game companies' motivations-- especially ones that take over another company or pick up a gaming license from another company. Gaming has always (in my experience) been a very anti-business hobby, with the OGL finally creating an almost countersubculture of hobbyist/cottage industry designers; however, instead of dispelling the atmosphere of distrust, it changes the "parasitical moneygrubbing sellouts" into something even less worthy of trust-- the competition.

Personally, this drives me nuts, both as a gamer and as a would-be designer. I think we should all be working together-- or at least, individually in accordance-- to make roleplaying, both as a hobby and as an industry, richer, deeper, and more enjoyable and respectable. We should be seeking to improve our gaming environment.

 

[diaglo]

I keep seeing it mentioned that the 4th edition of DnD is going to come out Real Soon Now and muck everything up. Why does anyone think that 4E is going to happen? Has there been a press release about it from WotC?

4ed already exists and has for years now.

it is called Hackmaster. just read your GMG.

 

[fanboy2000]

I remember the flame wars on e-mails lists when White Wolf revised their WoD, I'm not talkign aobut the big one in 2004, but the smaller revisions in the 90's.

You know, I had repressed those memories. I was on two newsgroups dedicated to WW around 1998, IIRC, when 3rd edition of V:tM was announced. There I saw the uproar it caused among fans. Quite livid.

 

[nothing to see here]

There's a noticable trend in gamer circles to be suspicious of game companies' motivations-- especially ones that take over another company or pick up a gaming license from another company. Gaming has always (in my experience) been a very anti-business hobby, with the OGL finally creating an almost countersubculture of hobbyist/cottage industry designers; however, instead of dispelling the atmosphere of distrust, it changes the "parasitical moneygrubbing sellouts" into something even less worthy of trust-- the competition.

Personally, this drives me nuts, both as a gamer and as a would-be designer. I think we should all be working together-- or at least, individually in accordance-- to make roleplaying, both as a hobby and as an industry, richer, deeper, and more enjoyable and respectable. We should be seeking to improve our gaming environment.

Don't forget their antipathy of the 'suits'...a combination of anxiety that their hobby is also an industry...a fear that those in control of this industry are non-gamers who don't respect the hobby...and a fundamental belief that, just by being big fans of a game, they can make better marketing decisions than any business-type...no matter what their education or experience