Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine?

[Stockdale]

Erik:

I am not now nor have ever been a subscriber to Dragon (although I just renewed my subscription to Dungeon). I do however pick up the occasional copy on the newstand. That said, I have not picked up a copy since its reformat.

My purchases are driven by the theme of the issue. I picked up the Gladitors issue, the Knights issue, the Campaign Classics issue and the Pirates-Ninjas-Dinosaurs issue. The issues I have picked up are well used. What I like about the issues I picked up were the flavor of the articles, the new feats, new spells, and new monsters. I don't like the PrCs (Never used one and never been asked to allow one regardless of its source). My purchase decisions were driven by the topic as opposed to anything else. I don't subscribe because more often than not the topics just don't appeal to me. Additioanlly, one article on any topic that may appeal to me is not enough for me to open my wallet. A whole issue on one (or three) appealling theme(s) is.

I am going to have to chime in with the masses here and say: DUMP THE FICTION. I have not read nor plan to read any of it. If it had some game-related aspect to it, then maybe. but as it stands - I don't read it.

I do love Dungeon. Its a great value to me, and the crunchy bits that are found within its pages get used more frequently than those in the Dragon issues have. Keep up the good work with Dungeon, but drop Downer and Wheaton. Yuk!

Stockdale

 

[rowport]

This is a great point. There would be few more useful pages in Dragon every year than an update to a comprehensive index. I'd be willing to bet that plenty of volunteers could be found for the hard work of compiling the initial index.

I agree with Jeff. I love Dragon (and Dungeon), but do find it *very* hard to keep track of where the cool race, class, etc. was a few months after reading it. I use some in-game (Wererat class and Exoticist Fighter variant) and still have a tough time remembering! An index on the paizo website would be wonderful, maybe just starting with the last year, and eventually covering all of the 3E issues. If a fan-based effort, I would volunteer to help create it for paizo to host.

 

[Emiricol]

I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.

I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.

But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.

If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.

So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

I very much appreciate your time and attention.

Thanks,

Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon Magazine (and Dungeon too!)
Still on vacation, still working

1) I decided not to renew my subscription because I wasn't using any of the material. From the editorial notes I understand the decision making process that went into the decisions, but that didn't make it any more useful to me. Having a large segment of the magazine devoted to advertorials in the form of half-complete short stories was a big turn-off. Too much stuff was setting specific. These are the reasons.

2) Stop making it a vehicle to market new WotC products. If I played in Eberron, half a magazine full of Eberron-specific information is great. Since I don't, it made the magazine worth half as much. Exaggerating the percentage, but still. Also, stop wasting 10 pages on "fiction" that is really just a teaser to go buy some book. That trashed the value in my opinion. Make that stuff a web enhancement or something, or an extra segment - don't eat into the magazine I pay for with that stuff.

My opinions, mind you.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Why I'm not, and what it would take to get me back

I'll try to give a slightly different take on a lot of stuff that's already been said, many many times.

I've been gaming since '81, and my first Dragon was #72 (which still makes me laugh after all these years). I was an avid reader/subscriber up to #140. I still have the old collection.

I stopped subscribing for a number of reasons. One was I just had too many issues to find what I wanted (though #112 helped lots). But the bigger reason was a conscious attempt on my part to avoid new toy syndrome. Dragon back then (and still) produces a lot of really cool, wanna-use-it-now, crunch. Sometimes it was because the crunch was obviously just too overpowered (the Cavalier from #72). Other times because it was just tool cool ("A rock that acts like a calculator - both punnish and useful.") I didn't have my filters built, and I couldn't stay afloat. And when I finally developed the filters, towards the end of my subscription run, 80-90% of the new cool stuff was being filtered out.

Honestly, I think this is what the "too much crunch" crowd is complaining about. New crunch is cool - is just that Dragon produces so much of it that sifting through the sand to get the nuggets is hardly worth it.

I didn't touch Dragon again until just after 3e - when I picked up the issue with "How to Build a Monster". It was obvious that Dragon hadn't changed, content-wise, since I let my subscription lapse. And the article that got me to buy the magazine was essentially worthless to me, as it didn't say substantially more than what was already in the Monster Manual. I really haven't touched the magazine since.

What would it take to get me back? More than you are probably willing to (or even can) do; but here it goes...

1) Reduce the publishing interval. I game twice monthly, and there's going to be at least a 3-5 session delay before I can use any new material. If the magazine is monthly, I'm going to be so far behind the curve that subscribing is pointless. I'd suggest bi-monthly (alternating with Dungeon), or even quarterly. That sounds bad, but I'd also expect you to increase the page count to cover all the in-depth articles I want. Assuming a 100-page magazine/month (and I have no idea if that's accurate), I'd rather have 150 pages I *will* use than 200 pages that will get recycled.

2) In-depth - and I *mean* in-depth - articles on what ever aspect things are exploring. 5 pages of "take the monster's HD, divide by 3, and guess at the adjustment" just doesn't cut it. One of the things Dragon is (or should be) is a learning/teaching tool. And newbies to a subject need a different level of advice than experienced veterans. In the case of "fluff" articles, that would be general broad-strokes that reveal sound principles. In the case of "crunch" articles, that would be specific cookbook-style instructions.

3) Advanced theory articles - articles not just about new monsters, feats, et cetera, but articles that expose exactly why this or that was chosen, or what the affects of a proposed rule change would be. Articles that advance the state-of-the-game-art. Unearthed Arcana and Arcana Unearthed would be example material here. Again, in-depth, not just a few pages.

4) Player/GM Aid - articles that help me be a better player/GM. Not just with guidelines, but with concrete examples. As an example, there's a thread (very politics-heavy) over on RPG.net (http://www.rpg.net/forums/phorum/pf/read.php?f=97&i=1214&t=1198) that has a fairly decent scenario description for building a theme-based adventure. It's crude and simplified, but more detailed than most theme-is-good pieces I've read. Then there's the whole G/N/S argument that I sure we're all tired of; but how many newbies are even aware of it?

5) Other system/OGL content - WotC doesn't own Dragon anymore, so it shouldn't be the house-organ that it started as either.

In short, I'd change the focus from trying to satisfy the *current* crop of gamers to building the *next* crop of game designers. I believe you'll find it will solve the other problem as well.

Oh, and lest I forget :
6) Advertise - fantasy fiction magazines, gaming websites, webcomics, anywhere. Get Dragon and Dungeon back into the bookstores, not just the hobbystores.

 

[Black Spiral Dancer]

Like a few that have replied to this thread, I *am* a subscriber. Like the few subscribers who have replied, I have a few beefs with the Dragon magazine. On the re-tooling of the magazine, I'm luke warm. There are a few things I like, and a few others that I find uninteresting.

1) Lose the fiction. I never read it anyway.
2) I don't need to know about movies in a magazine about role-playing games.
3) The First Watch, Player Initiative and Under Command article don't really do anything for the magazine.
4) Class Acts. Good idea, poor in execution. Perhaps you can narrow it down to four arch-types, like WotC did for their "Complete" Series. That would give you two pages for each focus (warrior, divine, arcane, and adventurer) and three pages for a new 20 level class. With more space, you can get a little more depth on a subject.
4) Crunch. I think it's a great idea to include a little bit of everything, but I feel that the magazine would do well to give them all a common theme. Why not put similar-themed spells, feats, and magic items all in the same issue? If a DM can use one, he could find a use for all of them without having to look through 10 issues.
5) There should be more then just crunch... there should be tips on how to utilize these bits and pieces to either enhance current gaming worlds or create unique gaming worlds. Give us ideas on how to utilize different mechanics to create new feats, prestige classes, races and spells. Give us alternate rules and the tools to we need to flesh out our own ideas!
6) Give us a corner to locate players and DMs in our area. There is a vast number of people out there who want to play, but don't know where to begin in finding a group.

While Dungeon is a DM's one stop shop for adventures and tips, Dragon should be the DM's one stop shop for world building. Lets face it; DMs subscribe to these magazines, not players.

 

[fafhrd]

I really hate to say it but it seems like Paizo robbed Peter to pay Paul, and now Peter is starving. Dungeon has the bulk of material I want from a periodical. I really like Dungeon now, and I feel bad that making it a better magazine has hurt its producers.

I don't know what would make me buy Dragon but it has to be very different. I agree with the bulk of the comments here. 1001 pieces of crunch scattered across dozens of magazines, lacking an index, with spotty coverage doesn't appeal. Add in uneven mechanics and I just can't find a reason to buy. 3rd party entities do Dragon better than Dragon does. If I want a nugget of material on a particular subject, I look to the Phil Reeds. If I want a new setting, I can choose from dozens of HC sourcebooks that have really been thought out and labored over. The appeal of not carrying around easily lost or damaged magazines seems small but can't be understated IMO.

Adding more online support and a really good index is a good start but its not enough on its own. I doubt your model will allow for PDF publishing but it would be a huge boon to be able to sort through the irrelevant chaff and collate the pieces I want to use into something approaching portable.

I want to give you my dollars. I really do. I like supporting the game. I'm an easy sell, but I just can't justify it as is. I have faith though. You've done wonders with Dungeon and I'm going to cross my fingers and hope you suprise us with another essential tool.

 

[der_kluge]

I had an idea this morning thinking some more on this topic, and Kravell had a similar idea, it sounds like.

If Dungeon is supposed to be *the* place to get modules, what is Dragon supposed to be?

Fill in the blank:
Dungeon is a repository of modules.
Dragon is a repository of ________.

I think it's a difficult thing to do currently.

The other thought I had, along my earlier comments has to do with player-driven feedback.

Erik - invite the readers to send you 1 page 12 pt. font typed letters describing their homebrew setting. Take them, fix grammatical/typing mistakes, and then publish them. Devote the _entire_ magazine to it.

Not only will I buy it, but I probably won't be able to put it down. I'll read it from cover to cover. It will be the first, and only issue I will have ever read cover to cover.

The best part is that you don't even have to pay for the content. People will willingly tell you about their homebrew setting. And you know what, I'm willing to pay to be able to read about those settings. Because, I just love reading that kind of stuff.

Next issue, devote it to campaigns. I want to know who the villains are, and what the plot was, and any interesting turns of events. I'll pay for, and read that issue cover to cover as well. Two or three issues like that, and I'll probably re-subscribe.

Alternatively, just have everyone at WoTC write up a couple of pages on what the game means to them, or a memorable session they ran, or a good D&D related story they have to share. I'd read that entire issue as well.

Be sure to include letters to the editor, and Gygax's column, and Will Wheatons (even though I've never read it, I'm sure it's good). And leave the comics in the back. Some don't like them, but they don't really take up much space. And I like them.

 

[IronGolem]

Why I don't buy Dragon

I used to buy Dragon when I first started playing AD&D back in the early 80's, mainly because it was the only magazine that I knew about with D&D content, and it seemed fairly Greyhawkcentric (also the main campaign around at the time). I stopped picking it up once FR came onto the scene, because the content seemed to be more FR-oriented.

Then, when 3rd Ed. came around, I picked it up again for a year or two, to help me get a feel for the breadth of the new edition, and because I'd heard Greyhawk was the default world of the new edition, AND especially for the Living Greyhawk journal. After a while, it seemed that each issue focussed on WotC's latest release book, and since I wasn't going to purchase every new product (I like just the core books, and maybe a few additional books on topics of interest (planes, psionics, etc.)), these issues had less appeal to me. Plus, the Living Greyhawk journal had been moved to Dungeon. So, I dropped Dragon and picked up Dungeon. Then, news came out that Dungeon would be the magazine for DM's, and Dragon for players. It made sense just to stick to Dungeon, since I mainly DM.

Occasionally, if I pass by a Dragon magazine on the stand at the local hobby store that seems to focus on something I am interested in, I'll pick it up, but I have no interest in a subscription. Mainly, I am just not interested in many of the monthly foci of the magazine, so it makes no sense to buy all of those issues, when only one or two a year are of interest.

 

[philreed]

3rd party entities do Dragon better than Dragon does. If I want a nugget of material on a particular subject, I look to the Phil Reeds.

Thanks! One of the things I always keep in mind when writing short PDFs are old issues of Dragon. I just wish more people understood the balance of fluff/crunch that went into releases from Ronin Arts (especially our "A Dozens . . . " series).

 

[Andre]

Like others, I currently subscribe but I decided a year ago not to renew. Doubt I'll change my mind, but we'll see. Reasons:

1. Value. Dragon is expensive. I just don't use much of the material in Dragon. I don't remember the last time I used anything from an issue as a player.

In fact, (going off on a tangent here) I think the idea that Dragon should be a "players" magazine is unworkable. First, most gamers are not playing in more than one or two campaigns at a time. Assuming we're not creating new characters every session, there's just no way for even a fraction of the material in Dragon to see use in any particular player's game. Second, it doesn't matter how much a player likes something in the magazine - it has to fit the GM's campaign. That means the GM will have to vette the material. Trying to shoehorn Dragon into the concept of a "players" magazine may blind you to the opportunities to provide material for people who spend the most (time and money) on gaming: GM's.

2. Related to 1. above: too many new rules, classes, etc. Instead, as others have suggested, solicit articles that make the most of the existing rules, feats, spells, items, etc. Not every idea needs a prestige class. Not every idea needs new feats. I want the ideas, with only the minimum of crunch needed and no more. I'm overloaded with crunch, but never have enough good ideas.

3. It's boring. In a recent issue, the editor responded to reader letters concerning some of the recent changes. One stuck in my head, because it summed up this problem. He said that Bazaar of the Bizarre would be called Magic Shop because Magic Shop "is self explanatory". Excuse me? Give your readers credit for some intelligence. This shows just how much flavor has been (apparently deliberately) taken out of the magazine. Rules are boring - flavor is fun. Too often, Dragon reads like a software manual, not a magazine.

In the same issue, we learned that the old "monster hunter" Ecology articles would not be used. Now they would be very crunchy because that would "give more useful information" and "inspire plots and roleplaying". I can't speak for others, but rules make for bland, boring articles that don't inspire a fraction of the plots and roleplaying the old-style articles did. And even the ones I didn't use in a game were enjoyable to read.

4. My understanding is that WOTC owns the magazines, Paizo has a license to publish them, but WOTC has final authority on what goes in them. That being the case, I cut you guys a lot of slack. Even so, there have been too many issues that were a little too obviously designed as advertising for WOTC. As long as most of the material is useful, I can live with it - but see my other points to see why it's not (at least, not enough of it is).

Suggestions:

1. No fiction. Wasted space. Let's put it this way: if a buyer wants fantasy fiction, they'll welcome it in Dragon, but that's not why they buy the magazine. They can get fantasy fiction in so many other ways. IMO, losing the fiction won't lose you more than half a dozen subscribers, if that many.

2. Instead of focusing on rules crunch with Class Acts, try something more imaginative. How about a sample character of each class, complete with background and personality. Use the sample characters to highlight different builds (the charismatic rogue, the swashbuckling fighter, a jungle barbarian). Make them something I can modify slightly and drop into a campaign, or something that will inspire me with a new character concept.

3. Take a look at some of the smaller pdf's selling at RPGNow, especially Phil Reed's. I purchased a couple and loved them. Why? Because the ideas were so interesting. Crunch is limited to the minimum necessary, but the articles are steeped in flavor. Rather than give us a list of magic items with mechanical descriptions, try to emulate these.

4. You don't have to have an article every single issue for new spells, new prestige classes, new feats, new races, etc. If it's interesting and useful, go right ahead. But, to be honest, too many of the monthly columns read as someone's homework assignment - something that had to be done, not something inspired. Besides, as I've said repeatedly, I don't want you to focus on including crunch for its own sake, but only when it's necessary.

Sorry this is a bit stream-of-consciousness, but I hope it helps. Thanks for asking our opinions!