Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine?

[Swiftbrook]

I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.

Mine comes in 2 weeks

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

I like stuff on Greyhawk, but I haven't seen much of it in Dragon of late (..snip..)

I've been hanging on to Dungeon, though, as that seems to be the place where Greyhawk shines.

Can't wait for that map.

This is exactly why I have subscribed for the first time to Dungeon magazine. The only times in the past few years that I have purchased a Dragon magazine was for Greyhawk spacific material.

Mainly, the material in Dragon is very hit or miss. Usally, for me, big misses and the hits are rarely bulleyes. Articles about psionics, monsters, settings I don't use, ... these are the things that are a waste of space ($) for me.

Bascially, the good material in Dragon ends up in a WotC book, usally cleaned up and ballanced. Also, material that might have gone to Dragon, usally ends up in a WotC book instead these days. The new races in the "Races of" books should have been in Dragon first, got the bugs out, and then placed in a book if they worked out.

"100% Official" I've heard this many times, but it's not really 100%. You wrote a great pair of articles on Greyhawk Feats (I bought those issues just for these articles), but the feats are not usable in the Living Greyhawk campaign. An article on Paladin in Living Greyhawk isn't even usable in LG.

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

1. Generic campaign material. The best stuff would be the kind of stuff that elaborates on what's already in the Core books? Seriously, who's Otiluke? Who was Bigby? How evil really was Vecna?

5. A regular column titled "Behind the curtain..." that explained the design process behind certain rules and why they work that way.

Honestly, even with these changes I'm not going to subscribe. I'll cherry pick the ones that look good.

= = = = = = = = = = =
Conclusion:
Dungeon Masters run thier campaign. They decide what's in it and what's not. Dungeon magazine is aimed at DMs and DMs use it's material. Dragon magazine seems to be aimed at players. A player may see something in Dragon that they want to use and bring it to their DM. Then the hastle begins:
1) The DM may have read it and is OK with it. (Player , DM )
2) The DM may have read it and doesn't want it (Player , DM )
3) The DM has not read it, has to take game time to read it (Player :\ , DM :\ )
4) The DM doesn't want to wast time reading it. (Player , DM :\)

It's just not worth the effort, even if there is an occasional, ballanced, good, usable idea.

-Swiftbrook

 

[Andre]

Thanks! Can I ask which ones you purchased?

/Sidetrack on/

A Dozen Unusual Armors and A Dozen Demonic Items. A long-term project I'm working on is modifying RttToEE with new temples and such. Your Demonic Items pdf inspired me to include a temple of demon-worshippers. (The players will hate you... )

/Sidetrack off/

 

[philreed]

/Sidetrack on/

A Dozen Unusual Armors and A Dozen Demonic Items. A long-term project I'm working on is modifying RttToEE with new temples and such. Your Demonic Items pdf inspired me to include a temple of demon-worshippers. (The players will hate you... )

/Sidetrack off/

So you know, I wrote A Dozen Unusual Armors while Michael Hammes wrote A Dozen Demonic Items.

A lot of the "A Dozen" PDFs are really just adventure seeds hidden inside treasure/equipment items. Sometimes we get a bit more blatant (A Dozen Troubling Rumors, for example) but we usually just mix in adventure ideas with the rules and descriptions.

It's good to hear you're getting use out of those two, though. Good luck with terrorizing your players!

 

[The_Universe]

4) Class Acts. Good idea, poor in execution. Perhaps you can narrow it down to four arch-types, like WotC did for their "Complete" Series. That would give you two pages for each focus (warrior, divine, arcane, and adventurer) and three pages for a new 20 level class. With more space, you can get a little more depth on a subject.

Love this idea!

 

[Andre]

So you know, I wrote A Dozen Unusual Armors while Michael Hammes wrote A Dozen Demonic Items.

Oops. Oh well, I also have A Dozen Dungeon Hazards. You do realize that Arcane Slime is the single deadliest trap you can spring on a high-level party don't you? Drop a load on the party right before battle starts and none of their arcane items work for 2d6 rounds - but the bad guys are unaffected. TPK in the making...

[A lot of the "A Dozen" PDFs are really just adventure seeds hidden inside treasure/equipment items. Sometimes we get a bit more blatant (A Dozen Troubling Rumors, for example) but we usually just mix in adventure ideas with the rules and descriptions.

This is the point I was trying (verbosely) to make for Erik. Dragon should have lots of seeds, with only enough crunch to make them usable.

 

[johnnype]

I don't envy you Erik. I've read only parts of this thread and it's evident that everyone wants something different. Here are my two cents:

- There is a glut of material in the market. Anything one could want is available for purchase. It's difficult, if not impossible, to set any particular supplement apart from everything else that's out there. In this environment the prospective buyer often limits his purchases and a $7 magazine ($3.00 if subscribing) is probably the first item to be dropped.

- Many clamor for non-setting specific material. They bitch and moan about how much they HATE this setting or that setting. Whatever. How much effort does it take to change the name of a person or place? I'll never understand it. Articles without setting make for dry reading.

- No fiction please. The only piece I've ever enjoyed was the recent GRRM fiction and that only because I'm a GoT fanatic.

- I could say the same of most full-page comics. I'm ok with the occasional strip or single frame but anything else is really just not that good.

- The recent 12 page add by WotC was terrible. I know they help pay the bills and without advertising you would have to close your doors but that was excessive. I'd feel better if at least they sprinkled the adds throughout the mag instead of bunching it all together at the beginning. Yuk!

- The articles that try to adapt computer games to D&D are the worst. I don't like my pen and paper RPG's mixed in with my computer game RPG's. Half the time not enough background is provided to make the prestige class playable. The articles come off as filler material.

- Speaking of filler material, the one page class specific articles at the back of every issue are worthless. Get rid of them. I’d rather have one well developed article than six throw-aways.

Some suggestions:

- Since Dragon is all about the PC's how about a series of articles about battle tactics. One month it's all about two-weapon fighting, what feats, classes, prestige classes are best suited for it and why. What weapons are best. Advantages and disadvantages but most importantly how to best take advantage of the benefits in actual combat with illustrations perhaps simulating a typical fight.
The following month it can be all about archery focusing on the composite long bow (you can do another month on the crossbow or other types of bows). After that you have and article on reach weapons, backstabbing, flanking, spring attacks, blasters (as in wizards who use fireball type spells), etc, etc, etc. Make it at least a two or three page article. Give it enough space to develop the idea to it's fullest. Take a peak at the Character Optimization boards for ideas. Before I frequented the place I had no idea that Clerics made for the best archers. Who would have thought!

I’ll end it there but just remember it’s quality that we’re after not quantity.

Then again, I like the magazine enough to subscribe. I don’t see myself dropping the subscription any time soon.

 

[Erik Mona]

>>>
3. It's boring. In a recent issue, the editor responded to reader letters concerning some of the recent changes. One stuck in my head, because it summed up this problem. He said that Bazaar of the Bizarre would be called Magic Shop because Magic Shop "is self explanatory". Excuse me? Give your readers credit for some intelligence. This shows just how much flavor has been (apparently deliberately) taken out of the magazine. Rules are boring - flavor is fun. Too often, Dragon reads like a software manual, not a magazine.
>>>

I'm doing my best not to reply to this thread, as I want you guys to provide as much "raw" feedback as possible without me or my staff getting in the way. I'll reply to the thread as a whole once everyone has had a chance to contribute.

But I did want to say that reversing this change was the first thing I did as Editor-in-Chief of Dragon. Look for the "Bazaar of the Bizarre" title to return within the next two issues.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon

 

[Lost and Damned 2]

But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours....

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

Hello Erik, here's why I don't get Dragon....

Firstly, I don't get the Mag since I'm currently Unemployed and can just spare the money each month for Dungeon or Dragon, and I get Dungeon because it's much harder getting good adventures then new Prestige classes/spells/items, etc, etc.

Much of the later you can get free of websites and can just adapt to fit your game with minimum effort, adventures though are much harder to get free.

Secondly, Getting Dragon here in East London, England, is neigh on impossible! I only have found one place in the whole of East London which does it each month, and that was after I became unemployed and found that out when I went for an interview with them (which I didn't get the job).

Luckly for me me a shop I know does Dunegon every month, since the change to 3rd ed i've only missed issue 104 and that was because they were having a refit.

So Erik, when I Get a job, I'll be able to get both

PS please change the logo on Dungeon back to how it was before, this new logo is far too bland, I keep having to take my time in finding it amongst all the trash that gets printed, where with the old logo I spotted it straight away!

 

[tassander]

Hi Erik!

First of all, I want to say that I'm really happy that you're in charge of Dragon now. You turned Dungeon into an awesome magazine, if there's someone who can do the same for Dragon, that's you.

Like many others I hate the minis-articles... and I'd be ecstatic if you'd manage to give Dragon more "soul", more fluff and creativity.

Something else I like about Dragon is that whenever I read it I feel connected to the gaming community. I love all those little tidbits about conventions and stuff that's spread all over the magazine. First Watch is wonderful stuff.

 

[Myconid Sage]

Well first off I am a current subscriber, but I'm thinking of dropping next renewal time. However Dungeon Rocks! It is at it's best, imho.

A lot of people have all ready touched on these points, but I'll give my dislikes anyway.

1. Dragon is boring. Most of the theme articles are just retreads of the same old idea, but with different mechanics. Most of the articles read like a dry high school text book. Dragon was always a fun read back in the 1e/early 2e days. I don't know what happend, but the writing style is just not the same. Now the old Dragon had cool concepts like the Witch or the Deathmaster, not only did they provide new mechanics, they also gave seed ideas for adventuers. Another great series was Greenwood's "Lords of Hell" articles. mmm lots of crunch and fluff! The Dragon articles just don't seem to capture the old flavor.

2. To many frickin' boring generic Prestige Classes. Nobody I game with or known has ever used one of these generic classes since the debut of 3e. Please kill them off.

3. The Class Acts articles are also pretty lame. You can find plenty of spots on the net to find out how to trick out your PC into |_|83|2 1337 |)|_||)35.

4. Feats, a generic article of feats in ever issue, just continues to deluge me with more feats, that nobody else will ever use. 3e/3.5 has way to many feats in rulebooks to make use of in one person's lifetime as it is. Honestly, 90% of all feats that I have seen that people use are in the good old Player's Handbook.

5. Fiction, I'm kinda on the fence about. I don't read any of the generic fiction, but I do read them if they are FR or any other WOTC world. Dump the generic, keep the WOTC related.

The Postives.

1. Editorial. Yep always read that.
2. Frist Watch. Always informative.
3. Under Command. Play the minis game, so I like it.
4. A Novel Approach. Just for example, 326's article caused me to go out and by the "The Rage". Plus it always nice to have stats for more NPC's.
5. Ecology. Mostly pretty good, but lacks the flair of the earlier days.
6. Winning Races. Usualy pretty good, it's sometimes fun to play a monster race that Savage Species didn't cover. Plus it brings back older critters such as the grippli.
7. Sage Advice. You can usualy find a good nugget of info every month.
8. Coup De Grace. Nice to the see the inner workings of Wotc.

The Neutral Stuff.
1. Silicon Sorcery. Don't really use any of the rules, but sometimes it gets me to buy the game.
2. Spellcraft. New spells are allways fun, but don't ever seem to make it into the game.
3. The Magic Shop. As above.

To improve the game.



1. I would take a small region (say a small town or a village) in Eberron, FR and Greyhawk and develop that region, make the NPC's, Shops, small adventure areas, rumors, prestige classes (that make sense), etc. Make it only 2-3 pages every month. Maybe even rotate a fourth articale for the dead worlds; Birthright, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, etc. Think Adventure Path, but only detailing a region. I would buy Dragon every month just for those alone.

2. Publish of the above articles in a perfect bound book after the first regions are complete, to make them portable to the gaming table. Also you could do this with spells and magic items too. I wish you could do this for the first Adventure Path from Dungeon as well.

3. Make Dragon less busy artworkwise. I miss the old clean layout of the old Dragon.

4. An online Index.

Well that's it, Good Luck! I really want to see Dragon stick around!