Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine?

[Andre]

Gaming is a hobby for mature people, even if they may be young. If people are incapable of handling vulgarity -- and God forbid they recognize those times when its use is valid and even necessary -- then they should probably take up something like doily-making.

D&D is a game about -- among other things -- violence and killing. I find it completely bizarre that the same people who have no problems with extreme violence have problems with a few words, all of which can be heard 2000 times a day at any middle school in the country.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I feel this needs to be responded to. I was taught at a very young age that using vulgarity is not a sign of maturity - being able to express oneself without using vulgarity is. It's not a case of being "incapable of handling vulgarity". As Wilder points out, it's commonplace. We deal with it every day. It's a case of choosing not to use it.

I haven't read the passage in question, so I can't speak as to that specific example. I can say that 99 times out of hundred, when someone uses vulgarity, it's not really necessary - it's just lazy, or a habit, or immaturity. Erik seems to present a reasonable approach vis-a-vis Dragon: don't use it, but if you do, he'll consider carefully whether or not including it is appropriate.

These are the people who forced the removal of "demon" and "devil" from D&D.

No we're not. The people who forced D&D in that direction never bothered to read a Dragon magazine, nor play the game, nor understand what they were talking about. Please don't equate us with closed-minded fools who reacted out ignorance and fear.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

On the fiction point. I have no problems sticking with FR/Eb fiction in general. Although certainly if you can get a Major author like Martin you should do so. What I don't want to see however is using the fiction as a WotC marketing tool. What I am talking about is running excerpts from new books that leave the reader hanging and requiring him to buy the book to learn the conclusion. Stick to short stories that have an end. While I may or may not like the fiction I will definately come away with a bad taste in my mouth if I feel the only reason it is in there is to sell yet another WotC product.

 

[wizardoftheplains]

I was a heavy buyer, but I stopped because it didn't offer me anything anymore. All the writing was similar, the diversity within each issue wasn't there. It also used to fill in the gaps within DnD that is now filled by all the books being published by other publishers. It's no longer unique. And when Dungeon came out you split your buyers. In the beginning, Dragon did it all, the more you define your content into smaller segments the more defined your magazine will become, but you're narrowing down what your mag has to offer.

The last few issues have interested me a bit more, but still, all the other d20 product out there has worn away at it's IP.

Changes:

Richer writing. A good short stories can give a player or gm as many/more ideas as a article on "wands" or "ogres".

Different artwork, change it up. Much of the fantasy art starts to look the same after a while. If it looks the same as what was released last month there is a problem. Keep your identity but keep refreshing your content, and your artists.

Try different features. Like a one-page quick adventure complete with small map that I can pull out. Call them One Knight Stands or some such thing. Collect them over a year. Maybe link them together. Or by themes. Texas monthly used to do a great thing each month. They'd hire an artist to interpret a concept each month with their artwork. Do this for dragon. How would someone illustrate the "concept" of backstabbing...or greed...or evil, etc. This starts to make you magazine something I treasure, rather than something I throw out.

Ads keep your magazine afloat, but try to not let articles become too "ad-like" in their approach. They become fake and consumers can see that.

Good luck.

 

[Larcen]

...As you said, there are a ton of review sites online. There is no void to be filled here. ...

Well, for me, the void that would be filled is knowing that the Dragon review I was reading has a sort of official stamp of approval to it. I would like to think, hopefully correctly, that when an article in Dragon tells me that a certain reviewed PrC or feat is well balanced, that it truly deserves consideration into my campaign.

We all know the problems some of the 3rd party material is causing the game system(s), especially in the areas of balance. I was kind of hoping Dragon could help rein in some of these problems with suggestions on how to avoid them.

Look, this is coming from someone who has been playing the game for over 20 years now. And Frankly, I am getting old, lazy, and a bit tired of getting buried in rules bloat. Simply ignoring all the material out there is not that easy. Especially when I do want to incorporate new and innovative ideas. But, where are they? Do I really need to invest a lot of time and money to find out what's worthwhile and well though out?

[tangent]How did Nintendo revive the home video game console? By learning what went wrong with the prior ones. They learned that a glut of poorly made video games started to burn out buyers. Too much low quality stuff started to make it into the consumers hands until people got to the point that they simply moved on to something else. So Nintendo said, fine, with OUR game system we will have a Seal of Approval on game cartidges. That way, the consumers can be assured that they are getting a high quality game for their money. It worked. People were even willing to pay more, a LOT more, for game cartidges that they were assured was high quality.
[/tangent]

Is it too much to ask that SOMEONE step up (hopefuly someone with an “official” standing) and start filering all this D20 stuff before this industry relives the past mistakes of another one?

(An acknowleding smile goes out to all the people hard at work in preventing this sort of thing already. Like this site’s Ennies for instance.)

 

[Arnwyn]

Well, for me, the void that would be filled is knowing that the Dragon review I was reading has a sort of official stamp of approval to it. I would like to think, hopefully correctly, that when an article in Dragon tells me that a certain reviewed PrC or feat is well balanced, that it truly deserves consideration into my campaign.

Oy. Which Dragon are you reading? When many have said that the feats and PrCs Dragon itself has published are often questionable, I have a hard time believing that some nonsensical "official stamp of approval" will have much of an effect...

The Dungeon Delver's Guide might be useful to new players just getting ready for their first delve, but most of the content seemed painfully obvious.
- On carrying supplies: "... dispensing equipment throughout the party provides the easiest way of dealing with such problems, with strong characters carrying more but weaker characters still taking on some of the load."
- "Unless the entire party has darkvision, you will need a light source of some kind."
- Barbarians: "When focusing on power, make Strength your highest ability score."
I've been playing D&D for only a few years, but I've figured out the importance of marching order, the utility of 10-foot poles, and the need for a light source in dark, creepy places.

That's beautiful, man. I think that might also be one of the major reasons I've recently faded away from Dragon Magazine. The articles really do seem to lack inspiration, and truly do contain painfully obvious material. No wonder I faded to only skimming articles...

If someone who's only been playing for a few years finds that kind of stuff obvious, imagine how someone who's been playing for more than a decade feels. The editors of Dragon have a choice to make, here.

 

[RFisher]

An issue of The Strategic Review (Dragon's older brother) included a short article on IOUN stones, with a note that their creator (Vance) had approved of their inclusion in the game. Early Dragons featured a short piece on Fafhrd and Grey Mouser's reaction to modern roleplaying gamers (hilarious, by Leiber himself), a lengthy, serialized piece by Harry O. Fischer on the development of Lankhmar, [...]

Articles about fiction & its relation to the game are a completely different matter than Dragon publishing fiction.

If Dragon is to have fiction at all, doesn't it make sense to tie that fiction to the fiction-publishing branch of the Dungeons & Dragons business? There are several other magazines on the market (none of which existed in 1976) poised to publish fantasy by up-and-coming or already popular fantasy authors. But none of those magazines can publish a short story set in Eberron. None of them can run a yarn based on the Red Wizards of Thay. But I can.

Well, that makes sense to WotC. It doesn't necessarily make sense to a Dragon reader, IMHO.

In my experience, the overlap between WotC's RPG customers & their novel customers is pretty small. & the overlap between Dragon subscribers & WotC novel customers is even smaller. (Though, I certainly recognize that you probably have marketing data that is more accurate than my experience.)

I'm sure any magazine publishing fantasy fiction would judge a story set in Eberron the same way they judge any other submission. If the Eberron story isn't getting published outside of Dragon, it isn't because it is set in Eberron.

But another part of me remembers the 7-year-old who pretty much discovered fantasy through the lens of Dungeons & Dragons. The first edition Dungeon Master's Guide features a reading list that points to Lovecraft, Moorcock, Vance, and Leiber, who still rank as some of my favorite fantasy authors.

I sometimes wonder if D&D, and hence Dragon magazine, has a sort of responsibility to keep the flame of fantasy fiction alive. That publishing short fantasy fiction in Dragon is a legacy. A responsibility, if you will. If something I put in a magazine can lead a young reader to discover fantasy fiction. . . I dunno. I get sappy sometimes.

I don't think publishing D&D specific fiction is the way to do that. I think the hobby needs to look for inspiration in fiction that is as little inspired by the hobby as possible. Otherwise, it becomes this closed, incentuous loop & the hobby becomes increasingly isolated from the larger genre.

Granted, the issue is larger than Dragon, but the magazine can have a strong influence.

Although, I think Dragon would serve its readership better by publishing articles that connect the game & fantasy literature. Rather than publish fiction in the magazine, publish articles that reference & build interest in fiction published elsewhere.

The Dragon articles about adventuring in G.R.R. Martin's world got me interested in his novels much more than a short story in the magazine ever would have. Likewise in the old days with Vance & Lieber.

 

[Larcen]

Oy. Which Dragon are you reading? When many have said that the feats and PrCs Dragon itself has published are often questionable, I have a hard time believing that some nonsensical "official stamp of approval" will have much of an effect...

So where does that leave me? Right. Back to not subscribing again.

I'm saying I want to trust Dragon and turn to them. Your saying don't bother.

I thought we were looking for ways to improve the magazine here.

 

[Buldan]

I have to agree with RFisher on his views regarding short stories and Dragon. So count this as another vote for no fiction.

However, the idea of a Dragon that has similar format to National Geographic in regards to articles really piques my interest. Minor crunch, much fluff. Of course, I would prefer the articles not relate particularly to any one world. Not a big fan of Forgotten Realms or Eberron.

And since I'm posting: Good job on Dungeon, I can't wait to see what you do with Dragon.

edit: so as not to add another post to this already huge thread: Thanks Larcen (see below), hello all! (first post), and I've been lurking longer, got tired of not being able to vote on the polls.

 

[Larcen]

... However, the idea of a Dragon that has similar format to National Geographic in regards to articles really piques my interest. Minor crunch, much fluff...

Welcome to the boards, Buldan. And thanks for saying so succinctly what took me a couple of long posts to do.

(Edit: I just noticed that you are not exactly new to the boards, you just chose to wait until now to make your first post! Congrats.)

 

[mhensley]

Here's yet another vote for dropping the fiction. In the past 25 years, I've had to have read at least a hundred issues of Dragon and I doubt that I've read more than a handful of the short stories in them. I read novels for fiction and Dragon for info on D&D.

On the other hand, probably the last issues of Dragon that I bought were the issues dealing the George Martin books. So it definitively worth it to have fiction on the rare occasion that you can get a well known author to submit a story.