Why a prereq for Weapon Finesse?

Urbannen

First Post
I recently reported an erratum to Gwendoyn Kestrel pointing out that many 1 HD animals have Weapon Finesse even though they don't have the prerequisite +1 BAB to qualify for it. The response was that they knew about the issue, and were probably going to make Weapon Finesse a bonus feat for those animals. I sent another mail suggesting that they could get rid of the prerequisite for Weapon Finesse, seeing as how it would not invalidate any pre-existing characters. Ms. Kestrel wrote back that she liked the idea and had already floated it, but that it was considered too much of a change at this point. I didn't point out that this discrepancy had also been in the 3.0 MM and that giving Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat to all those animals, many of whom are familiars, would mean also having to give them a new regular feat.

I personally don't see any reason why there should be prerequisite for Weapon Finesse. It hurts 1st and 2nd level bards and rogues, without helping anybody else. It doesn't affect 1 HD monsters since the authors of both the 3.0 and 3.5 MMs have ignored the prerequisite.

Weapon Finesse already has two virtual prerequisites:
1. The character's Dex bonus must be higher than +0, and
2. The character's Dex bonus must be higher than his Str bonus. Adding the +1 BAB bonus just adds another prereq.

Did the designers feel that access to this feat would give 1st level rogues too much offensive capability? Even with access to this feat, a 1st level rogue with a 16 Dex will still have a lower attack bonus than a 1st level fighter with a 16 Str, and will do much less damage. 1st level rogues also can't take Weapon Focus.
Rogue w/ short sword +0 BAB, +3 Dex = +3, 1d6.
Fighter w/focus in longsword +1 BAB, +3 Str, +1 WFo = +5, 1d8+3.

It seems strange that Weapon Finesse requires a +1 BAB, but Combat Expertise and Power Attack don't.

I believe we are going to house rule away the prereq in the game I'm in, at least so the familiars will be rules compliant.

Is this prereq justified? Or do you ignore it already?
 

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I think the point is to let fighters shine at 1st-2nd level. After that, they've started to pick up enough extra BAB and attack bonuses that losing the 'strength edge' doesn't matter so much.

Finesse was always a bonus feat for lots of animals, they just didn't clearly specify it in the 3.0 MM.
 

The thing is that levels 3 and 4, the difference is the same as it would be at 1st and 2nd. Given the same example, at levels 3 and 4, the rogue will have attacks of +5 and +6, while the fighter will have attacks of +7 and +8. By taking Weapon Finesse at 3rd level, the rogue bridges a huge gap.

Another issue is that rogues need offense. Most will be called upon to engage in melee combat at 1st and 2nd level.

In 3.5, it says that if a creature has a bonus feat, it doesn't have to meet the prereqs. In 3.0, creatures had to meet the prereqs for all the feats they had, even though there was no specific rule for deciding how many they got.
 


I think it is fine as is, otherwise finesse is a no-brainer decision for 1st level rogues (especially human ones as they can get improved init too)
 


Urbannen said:
In 3.0, creatures had to meet the prereqs for all the feats they had, even though there was no specific rule for deciding how many they got.

Actually, there were. They should have been in the MM, but were instead in an article in Dragon and then reproduced in the MM2.
 

Feel free to ignore the prereq

Jens said:
On Andy Collins' boards, I think he said the BAB +1 prerequisite should have been removed but slipped it.
Andy did indeed say so (but I believe it was on the WotC board).
 


I went and found it

Urbannen said:
You happen to know which forum, or maybe even have the link?
Here's the quote:



Posted by WotC_Andy on 07-02-03 06:49 PM:
Re: Q:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Platinum
What's the prereq for the new weapon finesse feat? Can a level 1 human rogue have it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Still BAB +1.

In hindsight, we probably should have eliminated that prereq. Rogues (and bards, etc.) shouldn't be forced to wait until 3rd level to fight in their preferred style.

Ah well, 20/20.
__________________
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast RPG R&D




It's from this thread, a little more than half way down on the page.
 

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