Why all the demon love?

[Gothmog]

There's always the possiblility to consider Chaos to be complex beyond mortal ken, who think it is completely disorderly, random, but in truth its rules are just much more elaborate than those of order.

So demons' deeds are only seemingly random. Others consider them random, they themselves - only agents of Chaos - might even consider them random, but they ultimately follow rules or a Great Plan.

So that Demon appeared on the Prime, killed a bunch of people, spread some terror, but was slain by paladins before it could do really great harm, like that devil who managed to turn a whole church evil by making them persecute, torture and kill everyone who doesn't agree to their views? That devil accomplished a lot more, right?

Wrong! The demon might just have killed a couple of people and frightened another few people, but one of the people killed would have sired the grandfather of one of the greatest heroes of mankind (who would have abolished poverty and brought a thousand years of piece to the nations of the central kingdoms), were he not killed by a "random" demon attack. Oh, and that one guy who had to be commited because of his panic attacks? A decade later, he was released as the clerics of the sanitarium considered him sane enough to be sent out into the world again, but he lost all faith in good when he saw his wife and children being brutally killed by a nether horror. This man, a keen businessman, was fated to open a very successful business 15 years after the moment of attack, and that he will still do. But instead of the importer of spices he would have become, he started to trade in slaves, quickly gained enough political influence to make slavery legal in his country, and expanded his slave trade greatly, bringing misery to thousands.

Or maybe, one of the victims was the distant ancestor of the Great Hero who would have turned back the great Demon Incursion 10.000 years hence. That hero, and indeed all the 500 men separating him from his ancestor, will never be born, and in 10.000 years, the Abyss will annex the Material Plane. No more than 2000 years later, they will have crushed all the other planes from there.

You're making a pretty big stretch here. It could just as easily be argued that the devils infiltrated and corrupted a church knowing that in 30 years, one of the corrupt followers would be in a position to be a tutor to a young prince, who is indoctrinated and subjugated to the will of the devils, assassinates his father, ascends to the throne and sets up a monolithic Lawful Evil empire that rules for 1000 years, institutionalizing various lawful evil activities as legitimate, legal, and approved social practices. Perhaps these plans even allow the arch-devils to manifest on the prime material plane, establish a royal half-fiend bloodline, and taking over the prime.

In any case, presupposing that demons or devils have forknowledge of the future is highly questionable. Without prescience, the demon went on a joyride and killed some folks for fun before it went back. The devil willfully eroded the moral and ethical natures of hundreds of people and spread the seeds for more corruption of souls in the prime, and possibly changes cultural attitudes towards some practices, such as slavery. Seems to me the devil is more more insidious and malicious threat.

I vastly prefer devils as BBEGs in my games. Like Jurgen said above, demons cause fear, horror, pain, and terror because they are fun for them- not because they are tools. I see demons as ruled by emotion and doing what seems like a good idea at the time, even though down the line it might cause major problems for them. Demons get wrapped up in the moment and their current agenda- they can be extremely dangerous foes in the short-term, but they often make critical errors in their long-term planning and suffer the consequences later. Demons are like incredibly evil high-school kids: creative, unpredictable, but without much emotional maturity, and have difficulty in considering the consequences of their actions. Demons are individuals and don't work or play well together. The only way for them to maintain order is by brute force and intimidation, which means if a subordinate demon thinks its in his best interests to do something else, or if he thinks he won't be caught for doing something else. then the master demon's plan falls to pieces in a hurry.

Devils cause fear, horror, pain, and terror because they are tools to further an agenda or plan. Devils also seem capable of doing some "good" things, knowing that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions- basically a way to lure suckers further under diabolic influence. A devil may spend years corrupting one mortal, wheras a demon would get bored or impatient and kill him. While devils do have emotions and have outbursts, I see them as ruled by logic and an intellectual dissociation from what they are doing. While the demon revels in the moment, the devil revels in watching the complex threads of his master plan come together. Devils tend to be more easily-foiled in the short term, because if one aspect of their plan fails, they have to replan or go to a backup plan, but in the end you're far more screwed if a devil has it in for you than if a demon does. Devils just don't give up, while I see demons as getting bored or deciding it too much trouble and moving on to something else. Devils also have a rigid hierarchy and work well together. While probably not loyal, a devil knows that faithful service and good performance at his job will get him a reward, and maybe a promotion to becoming a more powerful being someday. Finally, devils take the greatest joy in corrupting the pure and good, and twisting or subverting it to their own ends. This is far more horrific than simple slaughter or fear, because a person actually loses what makes him unique and special, and instead becomes a hollow, hateful shell of himself due to his own selfish and greedy impulses. Indeed, devils RELY on the chaotic and selfish nature of others for their corruption and plans to succeed- I'd say devils truly understand the psyche and mindset of the alignments better than any other being in the universe.

Take home message is this: a demon may screw you over, a devil will make you screw yourself over.

Of course, this all assumes you use alignments in your game and core D&D assumptions. For me, demons, devils and daemons are all fiends and are the same thing when I use them- the physical and spiritual manifestation of true evil, which no mortal can hope to rival or truly comprehend.

 

[James Jacobs]

So by having his stats printed in a Demonomicon article, each demon is guarranteeing that he'll never be used in a published adventure?

Actually... some of the demon lords who have appeared in Demonomicon articles ARE appearing in Savage Tide.

 

[Shade]

Oooh, new subraces of neutral evil outsider!!!

Daewooloths
Pintoloths
Firebirdloths
Hummerloths

Fear the Kialoth. Fear it.

 

[Kafkonia]

I'm not terribly interested in diabolical politics, so while I like the devil types (especially the Kyton) I haven't bothered to pick up FC II and have no intention to do so. I don't tend to go for premade game worlds, and while FC I is set in one as much as FC II is, the Abyss is big enough to let me build my own castles without worrying about what other people are doing in the sandbox.