Why all the demon love?

[Jürgen Hubert]

Let's use some pop-culture analogues - from the DC comics universe.

Darkseid is a devil. He has plans, organization, and knows the value of tyranny and ruling through fear.

The Joker is a demon. He thrives on madness, and on fear as well - but unlike with Darkseid, the fear and terror are not tools, but goals themselves. He causes fear not because the reaction will be useful to his plans, but because he enjoys it.

 

[Voadam]

WotC has FC I & II balancing demons and devils

Dragon has demonomicon articles. favoring demons
Dungeon has Savage Tide. Favoring demons.

Mongoose has slayer's Guide to Demons, favoring demons
Mongoose has Book of Hell, favoring devils.
Mongoose has that 3 book d20 game where you play in Hell, favoring devils

Green Ronin has Book of Fiends, balancing demons and devils.

Erik and James' preference for writing about demons pushes them in Dragon and Dungeon, but otherwise I don't think it is that big a tipping force in gaming.

 

[lukelightning]

Heck, the word evil is in the word devil, but all a demon has is emon.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

But what about monkeys and robots?

Monkeybots are the way to go. If you disagree, Ook my ooky metal eek!

But D&D Chaos has nothing to do with Chaos theory.

Who says? I never read that they limited it to one definition of chaos.

Hey, they are Lawful Evil not Lawful Stupid!

There's a difference?

 

[Shade]

Heck, the word evil is in the word devil, but all a demon has is emon.

Yugoloths contain the name one of the most horrific vehicles ever released upon the world. So what's your point?

(They also are an anagram for "holy gout")

 

[lukelightning]

Who says? I never read that they limited it to one definition of chaos.
)

D&D alignments are about morals and behavior, not about physical law. Just as chaos can mean different things, "Good" can mean "capable", does that mean Good people are more capable than evil people?

 

[Zaukrie]

To me it is related to what was said earlier, but a little different. The abyss is more open to my interpretation and inclusion of new terrain, weirdness, etc. than is Hell. Since it is constantly changing I can have plots and rulers and whatnot change, and no one in my campaign (if I currently ahd one running) could argue about it. But, Hell has 9 layers. Each layer has certain characteristics. The rulers are well defined and very, very powerful. In the abyss, I can do pretty much whatever I want, even have new demon lords that aren't all that powerful yet.

Frankly, it's the freedom that the abyss allows in terms of my story and my world that attracts me to demons, not necessarily any individual or group of demons over similar devils.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

D&D alignments are about morals and behavior, not about physical law.

Chaos Theory is as much a concept as a physical law.

D&D Chaos doesn't have to be "random deeds". It's about following your own ideals over the laws established by humans or their deities. It's about being an individual. Randomness is only one aspect, and even then, it often means "apparent randomness" because the observer doesn't understand or even know about those impulses.

I don't see how I can't explain say I'm chaotic because "I don't follow the petty rules invented by other humans, their governments, or their deities. I only acknowledge the rule of the universe - Chaos - which is usually so complex that you can't understand, but noone can really defy those, anyway. And whenever I feel like I have to invent other guidelines for my behaviour, I create them how I feel is best, not how some stranger things I should behave"

I'm not saying that this "complex beyond mortal comprehension" is the only definition of Chaos, but I am saying that it's a perfectly viable one in D&D.

 

[gizmo33]

There is already plenty of stuff for Devils and very little room to add new to them.

Most of the adventures that I've seen involving demons could use devils instead as the BBEG. For instance, I think you could rewrite the Savage Tide AP using Mammon. Rewrite Age of Worms using Beelzebul and call it the Age of Flies. Most of the adventures take place on the Prime anyway, the idea that the Hells have been detailed to some extent (and IMO not really all that completely) shouldn't be prohibitive. If it is, then someone please point me to the map of Asmodeus' palace in Nessus.

 

[Desdichado]

This whole inane discussion of whether demons are presented "chaotically enough" certainly reinforces to me that I made the right decision in minimizing or even completely eliminating when possible alignment from my game.

For me, a fiend is a fiend is a fiend. Devils and demons have different abilities, but a devil and a demon could very well serve in the same court under the same archfiend together. I do like the nature of the Abyss vs. Hell, in terms of a large number of archfiend's courts and layers as opposed to the smaller, more confined and integrated layout of Hell, but I don't like focusing on the "philosophical" difference between demons and devils at all.