Why all the demon love?

[BOZ]

Heck, the word evil is in the word devil, but all a demon has is emon.

actually, you mean emo.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

actually, you mean emo.

That's a low blow!

 

[Shade]

actually, you mean emo.

http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/emo.jpg

 

[sckeener]

Most of the adventures that I've seen involving demons could use devils instead as the BBEG. For instance, I think you could rewrite the Savage Tide AP using Mammon. Rewrite Age of Worms using Beelzebul and call it the Age of Flies.

I think the risk of doing something like that is in messing with the structure of the hells. There is some flexibility in the Abyss....but Hell rarely changes.

Most of the adventures take place on the Prime anyway, the idea that the Hells have been detailed to some extent (and IMO not really all that completely) shouldn't be prohibitive. If it is, then someone please point me to the map of Asmodeus' palace in Nessus.

as I said....

I really don't want Ed Greenwood (or Robin D. Laws and Robert J. Schwalb) to do an architecture of hell article.

 

[Voadam]

I think the risk of doing something like that is in messing with the structure of the hells. There is some flexibility in the Abyss....but Hell rarely changes.

Heh. Tiamat is in charge of the 1st layer, no wait, its some pit fiend. Geryon is an archdevil in charge of a layer, no he's an exile, no he's an obliterated vestige. There is the Reckoning, there is the blood war, there are ancient baatorians. Hell is the battlefield of warring Goblin and orc souls, no they were all kicked out. Asmodeus is actually a greater creator god, no he's not.

Planes are infinite. Lots of stuff can happen, things can change. Even in Hell.

 

[gizmo33]

I think the risk of doing something like that is in messing with the structure of the hells. There is some flexibility in the Abyss....but Hell rarely changes.

It would seem then that logically the risks of running an adventure in a well-developed fantasy world are exactly the same. For example, you couldn't run an adventure in the city of Greyhawk because someone might burn down a landmark, or assassinate the mayor, or whatever.

Depends what you mean by the "structure" too, since the place will continue to be divided into the 9 layers, with alliances between arch-devils and so forth. For a typical adventure like the ones in Dungeon, it's mostly a matter of the PCs battling the minions on the Prime. A trip to Mammon's castle might be the final adventure in an AP, but if you consider the number of new demi-planes, etc. in an adventure path, there's no reason that those people and places couldn't have connections to the Hells instead. Ultimately, what good is having something in your campaign world (like the devils) if you don't use them?

 

[schporto]

I think the risk of doing something like that is in messing with the structure of the hells.

I don't really understand this sentiment (not just from you but everyone). Why can't you change hell? Aren't most of the devils themselves trying to move up (or down in this case) the proverbial ladder? You are the DM. Make it happen. And more details doesn't nessecitate change. Create a new devil who is mid-level-ish and not a Prime Devil.
I do see room for expansion is all.
-cpd

 

[sckeener]

Heh. Tiamat is in charge of the 1st layer, no wait, its some pit fiend. Geryon is an archdevil in charge of a layer, no he's an exile, no he's an obliterated vestige. There is the Reckoning, there is the blood war, there are ancient baatorians. Hell is the battlefield of warring Goblin and orc souls, no they were all kicked out. Asmodeus is actually a greater creator god, no he's not.

Planes are infinite. Lots of stuff can happen, things can change. Even in Hell.

And people are still upset about those changes. There's a lot of baggage about Hell.

Orcus probably hasn't been done in Demonomicon article because of the baggage he brings. I'm sure he will be done, but there is a lot more work involved in writing up an Orcus article than say an Kostchtchie article.

Ultimately, what good is having something in your campaign world (like the devils) if you don't use them?

Nothing is stopping DMs from using Hell. I convert all adventures to my world already. I pretty much rewrite the adventures into a word document...so simple name switches are easy...find/replace.

I just think it is harder to balance the cannon of the Hells than the Abyss. Paizo and WotC risk more when introducing new elements into Hell than they do with the Abyss.

You are the DM. Make it happen. And more details doesn't nessecitate change. Create a new devil who is mid-level-ish and not a Prime Devil.
I do see room for expansion is all.
-cpd

As a DM I have no problem with making changes to hell....however if I do make a change and later WotC goes a different direction then I am going to forever be mucking about with cannon vs my world.

WotC and Paizo should be bring out stuff that will work in most settings...there's room for growth in the Abyss....heck there is room for growth in most of the planes...but they have to be careful not to offend the base.

I feel for Robin and Robert. They had a hard time trying to merge the past cannon. Their version is ok and better than I expected; however I'm not happy with FC2.

 

[helium3]

Yugoloths contain the name one of the most horrific vehicles ever released upon the world. So what's your point?

(They also are an anagram for "holy gout")

Oooh, new subraces of neutral evil outsider!!!

Daewooloths
Pintoloths
Firebirdloths
Hummerloths

 

[gizmo33]

As a DM I have no problem with making changes to hell....however if I do make a change and later WotC goes a different direction then I am going to forever be mucking about with cannon vs my world.

Same problem with any published setting. The old Q1 module introduced the possibility that the PCs would kill off Lolth.

If you look at the premise behind things like the Fiendish Codex, it's only to publish a bunch of canon anyway. What good is it, then, to publish a book with NPCs, or setting material, etc. because all of it is subject to the same issues you identify. So by having his stats printed in a Demonomicon article, each demon is guarranteeing that he'll never be used in a published adventure?

WotC and Paizo should be bring out stuff that will work in most settings...there's room for growth in the Abyss....heck there is room for growth in most of the planes...but they have to be careful not to offend the base.

Of all the issues that seem to offend the base on this board, I didn't know that the heirarchy of the Hells was one of them.

Besides, (I guess I'm repeating myself but I haven't really seen you address this) - 99% of adventures (example - any of the adventure paths) could be done without affecting the canon other than making it window dressing anyway. Take any of the adventure paths from Dungeon. A bunch of new monsters, new settings, Prime Material plane NPCs and dungeons, some new magic items, spells, etc. And what's really known about someone, say Mephistopheles, that would prohit such expansion? Is his family tree posted somewhere? Couldn't any of the evil villains from any of the adventure paths be a descendant or follower?

I already make these changes anyway, because beings like Kyuss and Demogorgon were already characters in my campaign. It's fairly routine for me to change the modules that feature them, but the modules contain many ideas and inspiration that I wind up using. I would like to see something similar for the Nine Hells. In fact, it's because they feature canon material (like Kyuss) that I'm even curious about them. An adventure about the demon lord Xysdjaldslf on the 415th layer of the Abyss doesn't interest me as much.