why anti-art? (slightly ot ranrish)

[Celtavian]

RE

Yes. But again, many people seem to percieve that the work of the best artists is not worth as much as the work of even a mediocre "professional".

Art is a matter of taste. For example, I have no taste for Picasso. I love Norman Rockwell though.

I am realism freak when it comes to art. I prefer art with a very realistic feel to it, even if outlandish. For example, I don't enjoy manga comics because the characters are too cartoony. I prefer a high level of detail and a face that I could picture on a real human being. That is my taste.

Creativity is an awe-inspiring trait when it occurs in geniuses. Never forget that having a lightning fast mind capable of calculating quickly is also necessary. Many traits must support creative genius otherwise it is never seen. For example, Michael Jordan is a creative genius when it comes to basketball. If you have ever watched him switch hands while in the air creating a shot while moving, you would understand. Yet, without the proper physical skills, an incredible work ethic, and an ability to persevere when most men would crumble, his creative genius might never have been realized.

Very few single traits are unsupported. Great accomplishments by human beings require many factors to come into alignment, many that we cannot predict. That is why success is not so easy to duplicate in any field.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: RE

Art is a matter of taste. For example, I have no taste for Picasso. I love Norman Rockwell though.

I am realism freak when it comes to art. I prefer art with a very realistic feel to it, even if outlandish. For example, I don't enjoy manga comics because the characters are too cartoony. I prefer a high level of detail and a face that I could picture on a real human being. That is my taste.

A very valid opinion, but I'd just like to point out that what you label as a 'manga' style is a subset of manga, probably more closely related to anime. There is no set 'manga' style, even though we see a limited amount here in the US. I would scarcely put Pokemon, Lone Wolf and Cub, Tenchi Muyo, Fist of the NorthStar, Galaxy Express 999 and Eagle in the same boat, art-wise...any more than I would put John Byrne, Alex Ross, Al Milgrom, Jack Kirby and Michael Oeming in the same boat, despite all of them being US comic artists.

I think what you're referring to is a more generic view of anime designs, particularly the ones that American fans prefer. Manga is far more encompasing than that. There's nothing wrong with that, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Drawmack]

The process, for me, is always grueling. I go through severe eyestrain, incapacitating back and arm pain from a contorted posture held for hours at a time, blinding headaches which are likely from the level of concentration I have to maintain for that long. I have given up drawing for years at a time because of the discomfort and disillusionment. But always, I come back to my pencils, I cannot help but do so.

Okay, I go through a 40 pill bottle of advil migrane a month. I am getting carpal tunnel syndrome. My eye sight is steadily deacreasing. I have hemoriods. My trapazoids bother me incessantly. My back spasms for an hour every night when I lie down and I get this from my job programming computers. I stick with it for love not money. So if you want to talk about physical and mental duress due to your job and claim that it's worse then that gotten from ''real jobs'' do it somewhere else please. On top of all that, I'm going to go tell my boss right now that I'm only going to program when I feel like it and later on today I'll let you know how much my unemployment check is.
[qutoe]
Again, we're looking at quality issues here. I could spend that much time drawing, working on art, and other things directly related. Onthe other hand, the times when I can feel that I am "on" are much, much less frequent than that. I work when I
^...snip...^
that that goes way above 40 hours/week in research time alone. I guess this comes down to, an artist has to work when the time is right, or he will produce bad work, and that does no good for the artist, or the potential buyer.
[/quote]
I have to deliver quality on time and be at my desk 8 hours a day. This is a cop out, I don't care what line of work your in. Let's take performers who are also artists. They have to go on at a certain day and a certain time.

 

[kkoie]

There is a distinct difference between Illustration and Fine Art. Ilustration is work-for-hire, and although illustration is basically fine art in many cases, it's still work-for-hire. Another words, an art director has determined that he needs a piece of art for his product and he is going to contract for it. Fine Artists make art and hope that someone buys it.

Actually quite a number of histories fameous 'fine art' was 'work for hire.' Michaelangelos Sistine Chapel is a good example of this. You take almost any of todays fameous classical art, and read about its history and I'm sure you will find that many of those pieces were commisioned works of art. Someone hired them to work on the piece in question. They might not of paid til after the work was done, but they hired the artist to do the work none the less.

I don't see where today's Illustrators are really that much differn't? They are artists who are comissioned to do work. Just as artists in the past were comissioned to do work.

So really, there isn't much difference between Illustrators and other fine artists. At least according to the history of art there isn't.

 

[Oni]

The Hildebrant Brothers have said that they spent many long hours debating over the difference between a fine artist and an illustrator. The only real difference they discovered is that a fine artist paints while standing, and an illustrator does so while sitting.


Ok, so perhaps there is more to it than that, but I thought it was amusing.

 

[Malessa]

I do art as a hobby, along with sewing, croche, and crafts. I worked sewing for 8yrs for Osh Kosh B'Gosh, Chick, and Carhartt mens outdoor work gear. I can sit down on any industral or home sewing machine that you through at me. I can recreate anything you may find in stores.

Now, lemme get to my point, each one of these places I worked for shut down and moved overseas. From a buisness point of view, they had to, can't blame them, labor is cheaper for the same end product, nothing against me personally, its just that
paying someone 50 cents an hour per piece is better than 10-15dollars per piece. No matter what craft I do, wether it be sewing, drawing, croche, if I were to sell the end product
with cost of materials + cost of time vested, nobody could afford to enjoy it, therefore, I wouldn't sell anything. Take croche for instance, 20 bucks for yarn, not bad, between 2-4 wks of man hrs and thats non stop.....eek, for a large afgan to throw
over your couch or on your bed. Makes you appricate that grandma or aunt that much more doesn't it.

Same with art, I have a day job, I'm not working for Disney, or helping sketch LotR effects, but I'm sure those people had to start somewhere, and even then, there time is
limited. You have to have a love of what you do and be willing to make sacrifices. Peoples tastes change, and most people now-a-days want something for nothing. It doesn't mean your
a bad artist, it's just that there is so much compitition and varity out there to chose from it makes it hard for any art and crafts or entertainment career. It all boils down to the
consumer and/or employer, their tastes, what they are willing to pay, and how long it lasts before they change their mind and looking for something new.
It's also the 'artist' job, in how hard they are willing to persue what they want and where they want to be and what sacrifices they are willing to make, sad but true.
As far as aches and pains and bad criticism, well thats everywhere no matter where you are and what you do, deal with it. If you love what you do, gotta roll with the punches, get up, dust yourself off, and try again!

 

[Celtavian]

re

very valid opinion, but I'd just like to point out that what you label as a 'manga' style is a subset of manga, probably more closely related to anime. There is no set 'manga' style, even though we see a limited amount here in the US. I would scarcely put Pokemon, Lone Wolf and Cub, Tenchi Muyo, Fist of the NorthStar, Galaxy Express 999 and Eagle in the same boat, art-wise...any more than I would put John Byrne, Alex Ross, Al Milgrom, Jack Kirby and Michael Oeming in the same boat, despite all of them being US comic artists.

True, some Manga is realistic. I was thinking more of Anime. Anime doesn't appeal to me on average, though some of the stories are very cool.

 

[brak1]

Just wanted to say that what seemed in the light of a long day to be acrimony now seems to be (mostly) a serious of impassioned, well-argued and reasoned discussions. Weird how perception changes from moment to moment.

Also wanted to share a couple of things and ask a question. My dad (who writes sportsman articles and draws cartoons, but has worked at a papermill most of his life) never liked the term "artist" but made a distinction that some people had talent and some people had skill. I asked him what he meant by that and his answer was that talent is something you're born with and skills are something you learn. Then he paused and said something I'll never forget, "I appreciate talent, but I respect skill."

My sense is that many people seem to think the so-called artist has no skill, only talent. Something they were born with and didn't necessarily work for. In some cases this may even be true. Having worked at a comic book company I've even seen this attitude amongst artists - those who went to school always looked down upon those who were self-taught.

I think that everyone has talent. There are talented carpenters, politicians, writers, neurosurgeons, what-have-you. Many professions reguire a goodly amount of training (gaining skills) before you can sell your services. Artists don't necessarily have that requirement, although many of them have become just as skilled. My question, I guess, is does this perception of talent vs skill - as I've rather clumsily defined them - have anything to do with your attitudes towards art and artists in general?

 

[kkoie]

My sense is that many people seem to think the so-called artist has no skill, only talent. Something they were born with and didn't necessarily work for. In some cases this may even be true. Having worked at a comic book company I've even seen this attitude amongst artists - those who went to school always looked down upon those who were self-taught.

I couldn't agree more. Having artistic talent is one thing, but being a skillful artist is definately better.

 

[Drawmack]

Hmmm,
Well I'm a freelance writter, guitarist, drummer and computer programmer.

Those are just the things I am currently being paid to do.

Let's compare training vs. talent in the different things.

Writter - no formal training but many hours have my publisher brother teach me mechanics. I had the natural talent of clear explanation but needed to hone the skills of gramatics, which I still work on.

Guitarist - taught myself to sight read music (3 hours), used finger exercises to nimble my fingers (6 months) and then got paid to play other peoples music, but do not know enough about music to write my own songs. This makes me lack a respect for cover bands, but harbors a greater respect for song writters.

Drummer - Actually a percussionist I play about 150 percussion instruments. Taught formally for 6 years, was 5 years before I got paid. I respect skilled percussionists and just hearing someone play I can tell if it's skill or talent and I respect skill and most that are simply talented get on my nerves because the do some really stupid things.

Computer Programmer - I've been getting paid to do this for 6 years, have been in college 5 of those years and can see the differnce between the talent I posses for this and the skils I've learned in doing it.

I respect skilled artists.

You can tell the difference between skill and talent in most things if you've got the training to be able to do so.

although with things like writting and painting it is difficult to distinguish training from skill based on the end product because I don't know if those brush stokes are the result of years of practice or just the way the person paints.