Why are healing surges limited?

[Aria Silverhands]

I'm turning hit points into Endurance for my games and adding a new stat to track called wounds. I've posted about it here and on WotC and altered it some based on feedback. I plan on continuing to tweak it through actual use in game play. Renaming it to something other than hit points removes the perception of hit points as a damage sponge that so many players and dm's have built in through years of gaming. It also makes it more plausible why a fighter can rest for six hours and recover all their endurance and recovery capabilities.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

One issue though with unlimited Healing Surges is each short rest they would then simply go back to 100% HP each time.

By having a limited number of Healing Surges, you have to be more strategic and more willing to take risks to have it go farther.

Also for me personally, I find that as Healing Surges decrease from usage, this represents a PCs actual physical health. So to have unlimited would essentially mean their never injured in my eyes.

 

[BeauNiddle]

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that.

Healing is already limited by the fact that it's all achieved through encounter and daily powers. Second wind is an encounter power. Healing word is an encounter power. Etc. Even if the PCs have unlimited healing surges, they are still limited to how many uses they can make per encounter. There are no truly at-will healing abilities (keeping in mind that Lay on Hands is limited to a number of daily uses).

I like the idea of healing surges having different values; I like that it's easier to heal the tank and harder to heal the wizard. I just don't see any reason why you should limit any particular character to being healed a particular number of times per day. The only healing that really matters, game-wise, is during combat, and there's already limits on that.

Add in the fact that they get an action point when they take an extended rest, and it just seems like the smart thing to do. There's no reason the PCs should ever not take an extended rest if the option is open to them.

I'm probably going to try out a house rule (posted about it here) where there's no limit on healing surges, and after every encounter you gain an action point but after every extended rest you start with 0, so the first fight of the day is the only one you can't use an action point in.

It's to do with the resource side of D&D. In previous editions the resources that mattered were spells for casters and hp for others (although it mostly came down to spells with a cleric in the party). In 4th ed the resources for everybody are daily's and healing surges (note NOT hp, but healing surges. hp are a per-encounter resource).

I like healing surges as they encourage tactical play. If the casters are constantly running low on healing surges then the melee classes know they have to defend more. If the defenders are constantly running low then the others know they need to provide better support. If only one person is low on healing surges should the party push on? and if they do what tactics should they change to prevent their comrade from suffering more wounds?

Your opinions may difer depending on how much you like / dislike the resource management side of D&D.

(note that you only get the benefit of one extended every 24 hours so it's not like the option is ever really adventageous.)

 

[Christian]

Add in the fact that they get an action point when they take an extended rest, and it just seems like the smart thing to do.

Um, no. They lose all of their accumulated action points and start back at one total ... All they get from an extended rest is dailies, surges, and hp.

 

[Jack99]

If people had unlimited healing surges, where would be the fun in sending wights against them?

 

[Zelgadas]

Another thing to bear in mind is that, if healing surges become unlimited, then powers like Cure Light Wounds (and probably all of the stronger versions of this power), which grants you healing without using a healing surge, become a lot less useful. Also bear in mind that, if you have unlimited healing surges, an action point after every encounter, and action points reset to 0 after an extended rest, the only real incentive to take an extended rest is to get your daily powers back. This means that players will try to put off taking an extended rest for as long as possible, because there's not much benefit in doing so, which means (unless you're going to enforce some sort of rule that states that they have to sleep every so often), you're probably going to have adventurers crawling through a dungeon for days on end with only a 5-minute rest between each fight. Now, I'm perfectly fine with the heroic tone of D&D, and I'm not terribly hung up on having realism in my D&D, but that kind of breaks my suspension of disbelief a little bit. If they survive the encounter, they're perfectly fine? No thanks. That removes a lot of the tension from the game.

 

[VultorDaer]

Hey, semi long time lurker, first time poster all ^.^
I just played KotS for the first time last night and unless we were doing something wrong, if you have the time you can use healing powers between encounters with your encounter powers, (once every 5 minutes I've heard please correct me if I'm wrong) so unlimited healing surges would mean that the PC's would get full healed in the 10 minutes or less it took to hand out loot / think about their next move. at least that was my take on it when the Cleric started healing us between encounters and I realized that it was still limited to how often in a day he could and had to think if I wanted him to heal me and lose a healing surge later in the day. (again please correct me if I'm wrong or if this has already been pointed out)
Also don't Action Ponits reset to 1 after en extended rest or has that changed?

Thank you for your time.


-Vultor

 

[Asmor]

Um, no. They lose all of their accumulated action points and start back at one total ... All they get from an extended rest is dailies, surges, and hp.

Yes, but if they had 0 action points (which, in all likelihood, they do), then starting at 1 action point is effectively gaining an action point.

I guess my ultimate gripe is this. There's really no choice about whether to take an extended rest or not. It goes something like this:

1. Can we safely take an extended rest? Yes: Take one. No? See 2.

2. Is there some way we can safely take an extended rest? Yes: Do what you need to do, then see 1. No? Tough nuggets.

There's never a reason to discuss whether an extended rest is a good idea or not. If it's possible, given your circumstances, it's always your best option. If it's not possible, it's not possible.

I don't want that to be so clear cut. I want it to be a decision. We COULD press on, and there would be reasons for and against, or we COULD take an extended rest, and there would be reasons for and against.

I accept that there may be rules later on that make the limit on healing surges more relevant in a single combat; however, if they're not relevant in a single combat, they seem entirely irrelevant to me.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

Any reasons against taking an extended rest will have to be through in game events that hinge on the time that passes while the pc's rest.

 

[Asmor]

Hey, semi long time lurker, first time poster all ^.^
I just played KotS for the first time last night and unless we were doing something wrong, if you have the time you can use healing powers between encounters with your encounter powers, (once every 5 minutes I've heard please correct me if I'm wrong) so unlimited healing surges would mean that the PC's would get full healed in the 10 minutes or less it took to hand out loot / think about their next move. at least that was my take on it when the Cleric started healing us between encounters and I realized that it was still limited to how often in a day he could and had to think if I wanted him to heal me and lose a healing surge later in the day. (again please correct me if I'm wrong or if this has already been pointed out)
Also don't Action Ponits reset to 1 after en extended rest or has that changed?

Thank you for your time.


-Vultor

You're right about everything. Although from what you've said I suspect you may have missed that you're allowed to spend healing surges as much as you want during a short rest. You're still better off not doing that and letting the cleric or warlord use healing/inspiring word twice every 5 minutes, since they give you extra healing.

Another thing to bear in mind is that, if healing surges become unlimited, then powers like Cure Light Wounds (and probably all of the stronger versions of this power), which grants you healing without using a healing surge, become a lot less useful.

I'm aware of that, and okay with it. In the example of CLW, I'd probably house rule it to grant extra healing (maybe double the healing surge's value) instead. Seems appropriate for a daily power.

Also bear in mind that, if you have unlimited healing surges, an action point after every encounter, and action points reset to 0 after an extended rest, the only real incentive to take an extended rest is to get your daily powers back. This means that players will try to put off taking an extended rest for as long as possible, because there's not much benefit in doing so, which means (unless you're going to enforce some sort of rule that states that they have to sleep every so often), you're probably going to have adventurers crawling through a dungeon for days on end with only a 5-minute rest between each fight.

I'm totally okay with that. In fact, that's one of my goals. I want the PCs to fight a lot. However, it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound. Don't discount daily powers, those things are freaking powerful. It's not necessarily an obvious choice that you should keep going and get action points rather than renewing your daily powers and using them more often.

Now, I'm perfectly fine with the heroic tone of D&D, and I'm not terribly hung up on having realism in my D&D, but that kind of breaks my suspension of disbelief a little bit. If they survive the encounter, they're perfectly fine? No thanks. That removes a lot of the tension from the game.

For the time being at least, I'm okay with that too. I like for each combat to be difficult. I like the idea of the PCs being more or less fully equipped, because I intend to push the boundaries and, ideally, at least one person should drop in each encounter.