D&D 5E Why are Persuasion and Intimidation separate skills?

[Quartz]

Subject says it all really. Are not the two intimately related?

 

[5ekyu]

They describe very different approaches to achieve similar short term outcomes that will have very different long term results. I dont know if I have seen a GM manage them as close much at all - intimidation often not even being a CHA check.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If you run the Alternate Ability Score variant rule, you can do what I've done and eliminate Intimidation as a skill and just have the big bruisers roll Strength (Persuasion) when they want to put the screws to someone.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Because Fighters need to invest their other skill point in something besides Athletics and Endurance. (Are those still in D&D? I haven't really played in a while...)

 

[dave2008]

If you run the Alternate Ability Score variant rule, you can do what I've done and eliminate Intimidation as a skill and just have the big bruisers roll Strength (Persuasion) when they want to put the screws to someone.

However, intimidation is not always through threat of physical violence. IMO, it is better to allow it to be flexible. My take:

Intimidation: getting someone to do something they don't want to do because they fear something bad will happen to them

Persuasion: getting someone to do something by convincing them it is a good idea or in their best interest to do it

 

[dave2008]

Subject says it all really. Are not the two intimately related?

They are related, but not the same. I don't know if they need separate "skills," but they IMO opinion they attempt to achieve similar things, but with different methods:

Intimidation: getting someone to do something they don't want to do because they fear what you can do, or have done, to them

Persuasion: getting someone to do something by convincing them it is a good idea, or actually their idea, or in their best interest to do it

If you persuade someone to do something, they might not even realize they were persuaded to do it; however, if you intimidate someone to do something - they always know it!

 

[Quartz]

If you highlight the negative consequences of something without personally threatening the target, is that Intimidation or Persuasion?

For example, "The Duke takes a very dim view of those who don't pay their debts." Is that P or I?

 

[DEFCON 1]

However, intimidation is not always through threat of physical violence. IMO, it is better to allow it to be flexible.

Of course. That's why I use the Alternate Ability Score variant in the first place... so that I can flex how/why a check is to be made. I'll sometimes use CHA (Persuasion) for intimidation checks too, depending on who is doing it and how. My original post was to highlight a way you can remove Intimidation as a skill and still have things run fine.

 

[dave2008]

Of course. That's why I use the Alternate Ability Score variant in the first place... so that I can flex how/why a check is to be made. I'll sometimes use CHA (Persuasion) for intimidation checks too, depending on who is doing it and how. My original post was to highlight a way you can remove Intimidation as a skill and still have things run fine.

I use the alternate system as well (loved since the next playtest), but my point was also that Intimidation and Persuasion are not the same thing. Intimidation could be a type of Persuasion I guess, but obviously not all Persuasion is intimidation. If you intimidate someone - they know it. If you persuade someone, they might not even realize it.

So, in my games you could have:

STR (Intimidation) or CHA (Intimidation) or possibly even INT (Intimidation), and..

CHA (Persuasion) or Wis (Persuasion) or INT (Persuasion)

To me: CHA (Intimidation) and CHA (Persuasion) are not the same thing and have different affects on the roleplay. So even if you are using CHA to intimidate, the person knows they are being intimidate, ie. threatened in some way. While CHA (Persuasion) could be a bribe, or clever word play, but it wouldn't be a threat. How someone reacts to being intimidated or persuaded are different IMO.

Now, I do think Athletics and Acrobatics could be combined into just Athletics and then you chose which attribute to use STR or DEX for the check. Though I do see some value into providing the extra granularity to describe different types of athletic training.

 

[dave2008]

If you highlight the negative consequences of something without personally threatening the target, is that Intimidation or Persuasion?

For example, "The Duke takes a very dim view of those who don't pay their debts." Is that P or I?

That is a good question! I would rule that as intimidation personally. It seems like a loosely veiled threat. *

*EDIT: I am assuming the person who is making this "threat" can, or at least appears to be able to, back it up and actually get the Duke to act on the threat.