Why are some NPCs so amazingly irritating? (e.g. Khelben Blackstaff)

[Oryan77]

Y'know, Mr. 77, unfunny personal remarks don't get any funnier or less personal if you put a smiley after them. If somebody else thinks it's cause to be unkind to a total stranger, shame on him.

My comment was meant as a social jabbing, ribbing, friendly teasing, ect ect. I thought it was actually pretty funny and yes, the smiley was supposed to show that it was friendly banter. Geez, rpgers online already have a hard enough time telling a joke when they see it without the smiley. So people always insist on seeing a smiley so their feelings don't get hurt. Now even the smiley doesn't get the point across?

I wasn't trying to be unkind. :\

 

[Brazeku]

As a DM, I've always strongly disliked incorporating NPCs that someone else has written into my adventures; it always seems inauthentic. Using NPCs makes me feel like I'm writing fanfiction, which I'm allergic to. It makes me break out in suck.


But in dealing with FR NPCs, one thing immediately springs to mind.

There was an adventure where Elminster was walking around in a dungeon with a dog, while telling it to 'heel'. He was also holding a wand. A healing wand. A healing wand that would restore the party every time he said 'heel'.

I'm sure the writers thought that was very clever indeed.

 

[ssampier]

Never thought about it like that.

As for FR, I blame the novels. The game products usually paint the NPCs in a positive light (unless you get me started on those Avatar modules).

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Or GMs who use the rules as written

In 1e, sure.

In 2e, sure at first, but with the number of kits + Skills and Powers available at the end, probably no longer true.

In 3e/d20 fantasy? With all the material out there? I would virtually guarantee that a casual browse through the Dragon archives or the Mongoose and AEG prestige class compendium type books could net a unique within the campaign world, thematically appropriate and mildly game-breaking power for each and every PC who reaches high levels. To say nothing of using ECL races or multiclassing between PrCs.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I have no problem with anyone liking these characters or disagreeing with my assessments. It's all subjective, and the OP solicited the sort of input I gave. If it is useful to him, good. If it's not, I tried. If somebody else thinks it's cause to be unkind to a total stranger, shame on him.

Yes, and it has been, so as the Colonel says, don't let the bastards grind you down, and thank you. That did clear up some of my thinking very nicely. Particularly as the last time I read a lot of the stuff in detail was years ago.

I never felt like Khelben was a bully.

I can understand that, from those books, but in most FR fiction and in the setting books, he's written as something of egotistical bully (as you might expect an LN wizard who run an entire city with fascist secret police to be!), yet, confusingly, it's all clearly written as if we are to like and respect him, not think he is a dastardly villain.

Interesting idea for a campaign: The PCs are a squad of Warforged (yes, that's right, Warforged) gated into Forgotten Realms by an unknown agency. They are programmed to wipe out all the "named" NPCs of Faerun. The whole group starts out relatively high level (10th?) but don't have any equipment. They must arm themselves and start to kick tokhes. If any die, replacements will be warped in at the beginning of the next session (or whenever). Bonus XP will be awarded every time someone delivers a laugh line while impersonating Arnie.

"Are you Marysue Connor?"
"Actually, I am Ladylord Maxifliffle Bumblebutt, elven minstrel / archmage / katana master / performance artist / druid and democratically-elected representative of the eco-township of..."
ZORCH

YES PLEASE. Man, I'd pay money to play in the campaign (in person only, sadly).

Never thought about it like that.

As for FR, I blame the novels. The game products usually paint the NPCs in a positive light (unless you get me started on those Avatar modules).

Well, my problem has always been partly because of that "positive light" - the products expect you to like the NPCs, no matter how horrible their behaviour, no matter how much the violate the rules of the game and reality (as noted by (Psi)SeveredHead), no matter how creepy, fascist and or unlikely a system of government/vigilantes etc. they command. I mean, I distinctly remember from 2E, mention of very non-good acts of angry violence from various (universally female) characters who were quite happily written up as NG or LG (I'm looking at you Seven Sisters). I liked in the 2E Cormyr sourcebook where it said adventurers in Cormyr had to spend 1000g on a charter or be declared illegal. Yeah, that's going to go down REAL WELL with the players, and make the NPC behind it, Vangerdhast, REAL POPULAR. They still talk about burning down Cormyr.

After saying all this, though, I will admit that I always liked Alias, and I never minded her straight 17s (after all, I saw a player roll better than that with no re-rolls with my own eyes), and I liked Giogi Wyvernspur a huuuuuge amount (though I hear they ruined him late). So my hate of FR NPCs was by no means universal.

In 3e/d20 fantasy? With all the material out there? I would virtually guarantee that a casual browse through the Dragon archives or the Mongoose and AEG prestige class compendium type books could net a unique within the campaign world, thematically appropriate and mildly game-breaking power for each and every PC who reaches high levels. To say nothing of using ECL races or multiclassing between PrCs.

I'm sure that's true, but I there are a lot of problems with that idea, not least that the vast majority of us don't have access to all those resources, nor does one feel that "breaking the game horribly" is a good solution to NPCs who break the rules horribly

It's creative though.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Considering I've loathed FR since I first read through the 1E box set I can certainly agree with those who find much to be annoyed about in the FR NPCs.

I'm glad Korgoth brought up Marysue. (too true, too true.) And the Warforged Crusade. Sign me up! It'll be the first FR game I've ever enjoyed.

Can't help but notice nearly all the comment is on FR NPCs. How about some form other settings? Really only familiar with Greyhawk myself and I'll put Vecna up there on the Annoying List. OK so he's more of a god come super-villain than standard NPC but even so. Oh and Iuz too. This could be my main issue with FR. Too many god like beings wandering around. All with the power to go nuts but doing nothing.

In fact lets just leave the super heros/villains in the supers games.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh and Forgotten Realms is just too bloody twee.

 

[jdrakeh]

In 1e, sure.

In 2e, sure at first, but with the number of kits + Skills and Powers available at the end, probably no longer true.

In 3e/d20 fantasy? With all the material out there? I would virtually guarantee that a casual browse through the Dragon archives or the Mongoose and AEG prestige class compendium type books could net a unique within the campaign world, thematically appropriate and mildly game-breaking power for each and every PC who reaches high levels. To say nothing of using ECL races or multiclassing between PrCs.

"There are hundreds of supplements that you can use to create game-breaking PCs!" isn't any kind of defense for game designers creating game-breaking NPCs (especially when such NPCs aren't culled from those hundreds of supplements but are simply game-breaking by author fiat). Also, as somebody else said, deliberately creating game-breaking PCs to offset game-breaking NPCs isn't a very desireable solution for most people (for reasons that I think should be obvious).

 

[Glyfair]

I think it's because, in my personal version of D+D, the focus should be on the PC's. They should be the impetus behind the major story-arcs, and stories should revolve arond them.

At least one style of play favored by fans of the Forgotten Realms seems to be having the stories revolving around the PCs, without having the world revolve around them.

Of course, I've noticed a lot of the "our NPCs are more powerful than your NPCs" philosophy floating around while recently reading the 4E FR forum, as well. There were a murmurs of disbelief at a major plot element (specifically

Spoiler

the formation of an orc kingdom

) because the "the seven sisters could wipe them <an army of tens of thousands> in several hours."

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IIRC the Simbul took on a huge army in hell, nearly outshining her own goddess' abilities. Of course, the Simbul was ticked (they kidnapped her ex-boyfriend); the Simbul could wipe out the orcs, but she doesn't have the motivation.

 

[delericho]

Why is it that some NPCs in some RPGs manage to be so viscerally irritating? Is it bad writing? Good writing?

Yes, both of these, although generally not at the same time.

I get the impression from the FRCS that the Blackstaff is meant to be something of an arrogant windbag, who knows what's best for everyone and is going to do it. That he accuses Elminster of exactly the same things is really quite ironic.

On the other hand, I doubt Wesley Crusher, Jar Jar Binks, or Anakin Skywalker were meant to be so incredibly annoying... it just fell out that way.

(And, incidentally, there is almost no good reason why Jar Jar is loathed while Yoda is loved. On the face of it, the little green muppet with the screechy voice and the weird mannerisms should have fallen flat on his face. And yet, somehow, it works.)

The thing is, it's okay for some NPCs to be incredibly annoying. Settings should provide a range of characters both good and bad, likeable and annoying, quirky and dull. Indeed, if a character like the Blackstaff can be both incredibly annoying and yet at the same time right about about almost everything, that creates a depth to the character, and to the setting, which is all to the good. Do the PCs work with him for the betterment of all, or do they let their personal agendas get in the way?