Why are Warforged so bad?

Felon said:
Bravo. This is a very well-thought-out post, which is more than can be said for most of the folks trying to diffuse your position. I've been reading that half-baked "clerics can remove poison and paralysis, so I guess you wanna get rid of them, huh?" straw-man line for several pages in this thread and I think I was about to have a conniption. Thanks for saving me the trouble of pointing out that there is big difference between actively allocating a resource (in this case, a spell), and flat-out immunity. The level of obtuseness required to blot out that obvious distinction must be pretty painful.

At the risk of sending you into a deserved apoplectic fit, your facile dismissal of the objections others raised and a dime would not get me a gumball from a gumball machine. The fact that an expenditure of resources is involved does not address KM's original criticism that running a warforged requires more work because the DM must remain cognizant of his immunities, which rules out certain types of games. Others rightfully pointed out that certain classes either have inherent, persistent immunities (e.g., the paladin) or can achieve temporary immunities via spells. These classes would also forestall certain games according to his rational.

Warforged are for folks who like things that are different for the sake of being different. "Screw the mechanics of it all, I want Data in this D&D party".

No, but you are welcome to add that bit of nonsense to the stockpile you are already sitting on.
 

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Quasqueton said:
My problem with the warforged, as I alluded to earlier in this thread, is the fact that these animated pieces of wood and metal have a Constitution score. Interestingly, though, everything that score means is taken out of the equation with their immunities and such. They are not "living", really. They are sentient, yes, but not alive.

I'm fine with the concept of the warforged, and can see no problem with having one in a D&D campaign. But when the designers give them a Con score, my brain derails and crashes. Does not compute.

Quasqueton
See - I'm from the other direction. I don't see why the constitution score should be the difference between living and unliving. Constructs and undead NOT having a con score produce so many problems it's not funny... screwed up hitpoints, skills, saves etc. Just giving everything a con score and saying "constructs and undead are immune to X, Y and Z" would in my book be a far better way of handling things...
 


I believe those straw-men were in refence to the DM's difficulty asigning obstacles, not the power relations involved in conflict and balance. The idea being if a DM finds it difficult to accomidate one PCs immunity to certain adventure paths...that DM doesn't play with magic very often.

See, poison remains a valid obstacle for a cleric with Neutralize Poison in a way that it isn't a valid obstacle for a Warforged character. The cleric, the fighter, the wizard, the rogue will all feel this poison differently. The wizard and Rogue have a low Fort save. But the wizard knows alchemy and the rogue knows poisons. The cleric might not risk succumbing to it himself much, but he's got double-duty on healing, both with cure spells and with antivenom. Plus, he has to watch out for those bigger guys with the more virulent poison that could still get him. The fighter isn't too worried about most of the poison he's me melee with, but he's being peppered with darts from the sidelines which might have poisons of differing DC's. Nobody is being hurt much in the hp department, because the assassins are depending upon their poison to do the work.

One obstacle, poison, challenges all characters of all classes. In different ways, but it does it's job as a risk.

That risk is entirely negated for the warforged. They face very little challenge from the poison. His rescources remain intact. Heck, if I wanted to be a mean DM, I'd say they get less XP from the encounter because they never had much at risk. And this isn't due to power level or balance (except in a very general way about how they relate to campaign composition) it's purely do to what, IMHO, is a bad design descision. I think WotC WANTED the Warforged to stand out in sharp relief from the rest of the world. And because of that, their actual playability suffered. This was an acceptable loss for them, but it isn't for me.

Magic removes some risk, but it creates a risk in the process: the risk of running out of magic. This means that a different challenge later cannot be addressed. An LA +0 race is a freebie. A LA +0 race with an Immunity removes some risk, without spending anything. For elves, it's a minor thing -- the risk doesn't occur often enough to matter. For the Warforged, it's a lot broader. Any warforged going against a typical necromancer or assassin kind of challenge of the right CR will win because he is immune to the major attack forms, and he spends nothing to be so. One could argue he spends 1/2 healing, but the typical necromancer or assassin kinds of challenges don't worry about attacking hp, they worry about attacking levels, Fort saves, and powers of observation and magic.

Using magic to remove a risk in itself creates a new risk. An immunity creates no new risk. At least, not at LA +0 it does. And I think the warforged have enough immunities (and side benefits) to be worth some sort of price as they stand now. I do think the only reason they AREN'T LA +1 is because there was pressure on them from above to make all the races LA +0, since the level adjustment mechanic hasn't gotten the warmest reception...

And, Kamikaze Midget, that really was a good summation of what Wizards could have easily done to introduce warforged a lot more elegantly. But, as is, I have absolutely no difficulty GMing warforged characters. In fact, I rather enjoy having one character able to accomidate an obstacle better that others...it leads to all sorts of bizzare schemes that make GMing so evil-ly fun.

Fair enough, and more power too you. :D But, for my milage, if I wanted a construct in the party, I'd bloody put a construct in the party, and not half-gimp it and declare it good enough to let them eat cake. Bizzare schemes are loads of fun, but I'm a bigger fan of semi-phenomenal, nearly-cosmic powers than I am of outright immunity....sort of a "bravery isn't bravery if there is no risk," kinda thing. ;)
 


"I was looking at the table for half or full plate and seeing 1d4+1 minutes to remove the stuff, and I think you get 2 rounds per point of constitution to hold your breath for.

So I think there's a pretty good chance of the warrior simply dying because he fell in the water..."


Didn't there used to be a rule for cutting the straps of the armor to save time? What happened to that? I might allow d4+1 rounds if straps are being cut...hell you at least half the time when you're donning hastily. I'm not sure where I remember this from...3.0???

Don't forget the couple of rounds you could pull off your saving throws for...I think DC:10 +1 per each other round.

Oh, and for D&D crushing depth is as follows: d6 damage for every 100'/minute.

Now I'm going to have to look all over for that bloody rule before it drives me crazy...which is a distict possibilty.

Kamikaze Midget, I can't get this scenario out of my head. That warforge thrashing around a dense jungle desparately trying to find the natives with the poison blowdarts...all the while his adventuring buddies are pinned under-fire yelling conflicting directions to him to 'go North...no South..behind the tree...no the TREE.' All the while he's yelling at them to stop hiding and fight some of these pesky jungle people who are 'too bloody quick and hard to see...they're every where...quit HIDING.'

Oh, by the way I recently had my PC's discover how hard it is to rescue a warforged from a quicksand trap. Heheheheheh. Of course there where several kobolds shooting arrows at them as well. MWAhahahahahhahah.
 

ECS page 23 said:
Immunity to poison, sleep effectss, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain.

<snip>

A warforge does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe
The various immunities warforged get don't bother me for a few reasons. One is that D&D assumes variety. A party of four PCs of the same race and class is more vulnerable than one of different races and classes. CRs and ELs are all based on that assumtion. Making a save from a one time effect as the same end result as being immune to it. One of the things I've leard from DMing that the CR and EL system assumes that one of the party survives. A rust monster's CR, for example, takes into account that one or two of the party members isn't depending on his or her equipment. Being made out metal.

The second thing is that many of the things they are immune to are status conditions. Status conditions are great for adding flavor to an encounter, but I wouldn't design a whole campaign around it. For one thing, status conditions get to be about as boring as straight combat. I wouldn't design a campaign where the only thing the PCs fought was Orc fighters; I wouldn't design a campaign where the only threat was being poisoned, or level drained, or put to sleep, or etc.... I would, most certantly, design an adventure where that was the primary threat, but even without warforged I wouldn't stake all the tension it.

I think this is why, even with all the immunites, warforged are LA+0, with the varity of challenges to overcome in the game, the status conditions warforged are immune to make a small number of what actually sees play. Obviously, campaigns differ.

When it comes to eating, breathing, and sleeping the challenges that target thouse areas also make-up a small number of the number of what PCs actually spend game time on. I personaly don't spend a lot of game time on basic wilderness survival. I run a norse campaign where a couple of the PCs have ranks in survival and usually handle it with a skill chaeck and few words about what they got if they were sucessful. That's the most I've delt with food. I can't, off the top of my head, think of instance where breathing came into play on land. There's the spell Miasma, but I banned that spell when I first saw it because I think it's horribly broken. I even think the Complete Divine version is broken. Breating presents a few problems, from a rules standpoint. Because every PC race listed in the PHB has to breath, no save can keep you from suffocating under the right conditions. If you design a trap where the party is is going to suffocate if the rogue doesn't disable it, the party will die if the rogue fails. In most other traps not designed by the troll Gimtooth, a failure doesn't mean a TPK. While there is drama associated with that kind of situation, but from a game mechaincs standpoint, it's just one skill check that needs to be made in a certian amount of time. Not very dramatic for the players.

I have to cross reference the PhB under "You're GM is being a git, and makin' stuff up just to spite you because he don't like you. So get out of there and play with a real GM, or kiss his butt, stop using your own imagination, and just write up a character he likes, then let him run it as an NPC... there's no real point in you running it after all, it's HIS character."
If your running sea encounters, you need to add rules to the game. I wouldn't add crush depth, but it's just as valid house rule as any. Adding house rules, which is partly what the section I refered to was about, is a natural part of the game. In fact, I think every gaming group runs into situations that aren't covered in the core rules, and thouse DMs adjudicate the situations as desired all the time. Adding crush depth to make the fear of falling into the ocean more real for the warforged is one way to handle the situation.

Also, adding house rules has nothing to do with controling a character and running it like an NPC. I'm not even sure why you brought it up.

Edit: Well, I learned something new today. DMG page 304
Very deep water is not only generaly pitch black, posing a navigation hazard, but worse, it deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successul Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute.
 
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The fact that an expenditure of resources is involved does not address KM's original criticism that running a warforged requires more work because the DM must remain cognizant of his immunities, which rules out certain types of games. Others rightfully pointed out that certain classes either have inherent, persistent immunities (e.g., the paladin) or can achieve temporary immunities via spells. These classes would also forestall certain games according to his rational.

And they do. But the price to pay for having these immunities is very specific and certainly costly. It's a real investment of time and effort to acquire these abilities. A paladin would, indeed be powerful in a campaign centered around a plague. A druid would be a very wise choice for a campaign revolving around snakes. But the Warforged have all of this and then some. Their immunities are broad enough to preclude or reduce a challenge from a rather significant portion of encounters. This is pretty much a direct result of their type. And no matter the immunity, they still have to breathe and eat and sleep once in a while -- they share universal weaknesses that the warforged shatter.

So what KM is saying is that he don't like 'em, more power to him also. If the DM don't like it, git rid of it.

Exactly. Warforged are okay for people who can overlook or even encourage the clunkiness, who don't mind keeping them in mind. But maybe I'm too much perfectionist or have too much of a designer's mind to overlook it. :p

And as for stepping on dwarf schtick, it's because they occupy the same slot the dwarves do as "the race that's really good at being a tough, heavy warrior type."

That warforge thrashing around a dense jungle desparately trying to find the natives with the poison blowdarts...all the while his adventuring buddies are pinned under-fire yelling conflicting directions to him to 'go North...no South..behind the tree...no the TREE.' All the while he's yelling at them to stop hiding and fight some of these pesky jungle people who are 'too bloody quick and hard to see...they're every where...quit HIDING.'

Hehehehee, nice....I feel bad for the people who've gotta hide, though. :heh:
 

Although I do kinda hate the teen angst thing they got going on. You know, the whole "we just got our souls, and must find ourselves" routine. Take out the whiny new race thing, make 'em to be thinking tools again, and then they may be fun!
 

Any warforged going against a typical necromancer or assassin kind of challenge of the right CR will win because he is immune to the major attack forms, and he spends nothing to be so. One could argue he spends 1/2 healing, but the typical necromancer or assassin kinds of challenges don't worry about attacking hp, they worry about attacking levels, Fort saves, and powers of observation and magic.
The Living Construct subtype spicificly mentions that, unlike other constructs if is subject to effects requiring a fort save, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects. Not only does it list the major attacks of a necromancer, it lists necromancy itself. The major attacks of an assassin is not poison, it is the death attack. Assassins can choose to use their death attack to either paralyze or kill. Warforged aren't immune to death.

Also, living constructs arn't immune to mind-influencing effects. Also, it should be noted that living constructs are also affected by spells that target constructs. So there is some trade-off in the kinds of spells they are effected by.
 

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