Why Are Warrior Women Never Ugly?

[ResurectedLlama]

So katanas swords weren't really that great?

I have a Ninja fanboy in my game group and he drives me insane. I like the current rules where a katana is a masterwork bastard sword; makes more sense to me.
[/hijack]

The fanboy has it all popculture. The katana was largely used by samurai and hradly at all by ninja. It simply isn't a stealth weapon but may have been used in training the men of the shadows. The chosen hand to hand weapon of ninja were more like knives and were not curved to allow for stabbing in tight area's.

Also, there isn't any real world proof of a katana being of any greater value in a fight than straight European swords.

 

[barsoomcore]

Katanas are cooler than anything. You people suck.



Actually, everyone's quite correct -- with the caveat that a well-made katana is a spectacularly beautiful object. There's something about the proportions of the curve, the handle, the edge, the point, the hamon -- they are beautiful, beautiful things.

 

[Storyteller01]

Hrm...sounds temperate to me.

You know, like parts of Europe where people wore heavy plate.

Brad

Yea, but check the designs, and not just the metal armor. Granted, there wasn't much in the line of metal, but if full plate had been superior for the region, far more of the important shoguns would have been wearing it. Also take into account the seasons when wars could be fought in these areas. Japanese winters included torrential rains and typhoons. European winters included snow and more freezing conditions. Much more conducive to combat. Japanese were forced to fight during the hotter summers. European warfare also had to take into comsideration more mountainous terrain and elevations (much more of it in Europe, with it interspersed on and between battlegrounds).


Japan used lighter materials both for construction and padding. Joints were also more open in Japanese design, especially around areas that radiated heat (armpits, neckline, and groin especially).


Anyway... back to the topic at hand. Fantasy features pretty because that's what we want. Even real life events scew in this direction over time.

 

[jgbrowning]

Yea, but check the designs, and not just the metal armor. Granted, there wasn't much in the line of metal, but if full plate had been superior for the region, far more of the important shoguns would have been wearing it.

The above is a logical fallicy. Just because something wasn't adopted doesn't mean it wasn't better. History teaches us nothing but that change takes time, tradition is often more important than reality, and other factors besides utilitarianism determine if something which is functionally better is adopted by a particular culture.

Also take into account the seasons when wars could be fought in these areas. Japanese winters included torrential rains and typhoons.

Look at climate charts. Most of Japan's rain comes between June and September. Here's a brief rundown http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japan/japan_climate.htm

European winters included snow and more freezing conditions. Much more conducive to combat.

In general European winter is brutal, not more conductive to combat. In fact the "war season" during the middle ages was traditionally after planting and before harvesting. Manpower availablity and logistics dictated such. Look up Medieval Warfare in the Wiki for a good rundown.

Japanese were forced to fight during the hotter summers. European warfare also had to take into comsideration more mountainous terrain and elevations (much more of it in Europe, with it interspersed on and between battlegrounds).

Japan is much, much more mountainous on average than Europe. Look at a relief map. Here's a japan sample from a calander http://www.trust-system.co.jp/calendar2005.jpg and here's a map of europe http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/eu.gif.

Europe has plains that are almost the size of Japan.

Japan used lighter materials both for construction and padding. Joints were also more open in Japanese design, especially around areas that radiated heat (armpits, neckline, and groin especially).

And even though I think you've got almost everything else wrong, I agree. The advantage of the current armor construction was that it was more bearable given the average summer warfare temperatures.

Why didn't the Japanese adopt metal armor more? That's a dissertation level question, but it's surely composed of availablity, quality, history, culture, infrastructure, and experience.

joe b.

 

[Storyteller01]

Last rebuttal and I'll stop. Getting off track and all.

I'll restrain my comments to things I know about.

The above is a logical fallicy. Just because something wasn't adopted doesn't mean it wasn't better. History teaches us nothing but that change takes time, tradition is often more important than reality, and other factors besides utilitarianism determine if something which is functionally better is adopted by a particular culture.

Agreed, but warfare/killing tends to be the top motivation for advancement of all kinds. Look to tactics used at Himagi Castle (butchered spelling). Trees that do not burn (or don't burn easily); grasses that when wet become slick, forcing enemy troops into a kill zone. Blood from arrow wounds makes for a great lubricant . Hidden entrances and floors. It still stands because of a change in tactics: they covered the castle with black fabric when bombers approached during WWII. While culture and tradition may have stunted advancement, I don't believe that a definite advantage would have been ignored unless there was an overriding penalty. As you've said, we have no way of knowing with the resources of this site.

Look at climate charts. Most of Japan's rain comes between June and September. Here's a brief rundown http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japan/japan_climate.htm

Based my original comment more on experience. Can't say much against this.

In general European winter is brutal, not more conductive to combat. In fact the "war season" during the middle ages was traditionally after planting and before harvesting. Manpower availablity and logistics dictated such. Look up Medieval Warfare in the Wiki for a good rundown.

This condusive conditions were relative to each other. One includes fighting on frozen ground while dealing with frostbite and other conditions. Japan dealt with this as well as wet conditions (trench foot, disease in water or water based insects, etc).

Japan is much, much more mountainous on average than Europe. Look at a relief map. Here's a japan sample from a calander http://www.trust-system.co.jp/calendar2005.jpg and here's a map of europe http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/eu.gif. Europe has plains that are almost the size of Japan.

I'd wager this is due to Japan's significantly reduced land mass, by comparison. A volcanic chain will be nearly all mountain. But if I remember correctly (I could be wrong here, apparently the norm ) the Japanese had combat sites were largely within reach of the various factions by virtue of the country's size. As you mentioned, Europe had vastly more area. That meant crossing larger areas to reach battle areas, quite possibly during inhospitable winter seasons.

And even though I think you've got almost everything else wrong, I agree. The advantage of the current armor construction was that it was more bearable given the average summer warfare temperatures.

Why didn't the Japanese adopt metal armor more? That's a dissertation level question, but it's surely composed of availablity, quality, history, culture, infrastructure, and experience.

joe b.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I've observed/read/theorized. There is agreement on this, including a cultural anthropolgist whose focus has been on the evolution of weapons and combat technologies (currently going for his masters degree). I can't be completely off-base.

Happy gaming.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Also take into account the seasons when wars could be fought in these areas.....

European winters included snow and more freezing conditions. Much more conducive to combat.....

Off the top of my head, throughout the medieval period:

Stamford Bridge: 25 September 1066
Hastings: 14 October 1066, delayed because William the Bastard couldn't get across the channel
Crecy: 26 August 1346
Agincourt: 25 October 1415

Find me a medieval battle fought in winter!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hairfoot
Why is it that female heroes are always depicted in art as lithe, flawless beauties with perfect skin and chainmail miniskirts?

Because they are standing near the artists with laaaaarge weapons.

And even a stupid artist is going make even the ugliest warrior maiden look hot if she's got a tulwar to his throat.

"Don't paint me how I look, paint me how I feel I should look..."

Vanity, thy name is Red Sonja (actual appearance 5'5" tall, 165lbs of scarred, ug-leee muscle).

 

[Hussar]

Yea, but check the designs, and not just the metal armor. Granted, there wasn't much in the line of metal, but if full plate had been superior for the region, far more of the important shoguns would have been wearing it. Also take into account the seasons when wars could be fought in these areas. Japanese winters included torrential rains and typhoons. European winters included snow and more freezing conditions. Much more conducive to combat. Japanese were forced to fight during the hotter summers. European warfare also had to take into comsideration more mountainous terrain and elevations (much more of it in Europe, with it interspersed on and between battlegrounds).


Japan used lighter materials both for construction and padding. Joints were also more open in Japanese design, especially around areas that radiated heat (armpits, neckline, and groin especially).


Anyway... back to the topic at hand. Fantasy features pretty because that's what we want. Even real life events scew in this direction over time.

Another note here. Japanese winter tends to be very dry with little rain, although the north gets a ton of snow. Typhoons occur in the late summer and fall and monsoons occur in early summer.

Japanese didn't make plate mail because they lacked the skills to do so. While I know I just annoyed all those anime fanbois out there that think that Japan was the epitome of military prowess, it's pretty much entirely a lie. Barsoomcore has it right for the katana, but, Japanese armor was typically very poor compared to European armor simply because the Japanese fought very few wars in the Edo period. Lots of small skirmishes, but, let's face it, in the Samurai period that people refer to, Japan had 300 years of peace (roughly the late 16th century to the late 19th). This doesn't exactly lead to great strides in technology.

Ssampier, check out ARMAS for some fantastic literature on the subject.

 

[Voadam]

So when it comes to female warriors, having images in your gaming books like these:

Artwork by Marta

is much more favorable than having an image like this?

Artwork by Michael Loh

I like the night and day one, looks like Selune and Shar paired off for a portrait.

I don't care for the lower one.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't know...I kinda dig the "naughty nun, ogre slayer"...artistically speaking.

It shows a woman as warrior, and successful at that.

The others are just cheesecake.