D&D General Why are we fighting?

[bloodtide]

This is a choice in game play, not a problem with the system.

When the gamers all decide before the game that no player characters will die or even be slightly negatively effected by anything, the player characters have 'all ready' won the game/done the quest/done whatever needs to be done(even though that have done nothing yet) and all foes are just there to be easy targets.......you get the problem noted in the OP.

But people are willing playing the game IN that game style. They both like it and want to play in that game style. They never want PCs to die, all ways want to succeed and just want to kill hordes of monsters........then when they do this they find "Oh D&D style combat is so boring".

Of course, if you DON'T do the above, you also don't have the problem...

 

[Vaalingrade]

This is a choice in game play, not a problem with the system.

When the gamers all decide before the game that no player characters will die or even be slightly negatively effected by anything, the player characters have 'all ready' won the game/done the quest/done whatever needs to be done(even though that have done nothing yet) and all foes are just there to be easy targets.......you get the problem noted in the OP.

But people are willing playing the game IN that game style. They both like it and want to play in that game style. They never want PCs to die, all ways want to succeed and just want to kill hordes of monsters........then when they do this they find "Oh D&D style combat is so boring".

Of course, if you DON'T do the above, you also don't have the problem...

What about all the issues discussed that aren't solved by killing PCs?

Like the actual grind of so many fights or the actual mechanics of the fights making them take too long and not be enjoyable?

Not all problems are caused by not playing in someone's preferred style.

 

[bloodtide]

What about all the issues discussed that aren't solved by killing PCs?

Like the actual grind of so many fights or the actual mechanics of the fights making them take too long and not be enjoyable?

Not all problems are caused by not playing in someone's preferred style.

You'd be surprised how much of the OPs problem would be fixed with PC death, even if you don't like it. You would not have "a grind" when that grinding character(s) is dead.

Note I also mentioned negative things. A great example are things that take a PC out of the combat. Five PCs enter an area and engage in combat, and on the first round two of them are paralyzed. Round two of the combat will be radically different as it's JUST three PC, not five. And yes, two players have to sit there and do "nothing" for a couple minutes.

Also, you really need to take out the game play style that, like movies and TV shows, that the "Heroes Must Always Win" . This is also has a HUGE impact. When the DM and players alter the game reality so the PCs always win/succeed/are successful you get the OP problems.

And, yes, nearly all problems such as the ones mentioned in the OP are caused by play styles. Person one gets on a pedal bike and has no problem riding along on a smooth blacktop path. Person two picks a broken rocky path and they don't get far before falling off and saying "that bike does not work!"

 

[Oofta]

This is a choice in game play, not a problem with the system.

When the gamers all decide before the game that no player characters will die or even be slightly negatively effected by anything, the player characters have 'all ready' won the game/done the quest/done whatever needs to be done(even though that have done nothing yet) and all foes are just there to be easy targets.......you get the problem noted in the OP.

But people are willing playing the game IN that game style. They both like it and want to play in that game style. They never want PCs to die, all ways want to succeed and just want to kill hordes of monsters........then when they do this they find "Oh D&D style combat is so boring".

Of course, if you DON'T do the above, you also don't have the problem...

The only thing I have a problem with is when people say that you can't support different styles based on editions. When we played back in ye 'olden days, we didn't realize we were supposed to have multiple PCs and a high body count so we didn't. We may have avoided some things, but we did it without house rules just fine. In 5E, if I want blood to turn the streets red with PC blood, that's not all that hard either.

Perhaps the default assumptions have changed from when the game was released. For most games I've played for decades now, that's a heroic game with a pretty good chance of PC survival. If you want the old school dungeon o' death, more power to you even if I don't see the appeal. But to me that's the great thing about D&D, the game has always been what and your group make it.

 

[Lanefan]

What about all the issues discussed that aren't solved by killing PCs?

Like the actual grind of so many fights or the actual mechanics of the fights making them take too long and not be enjoyable?

Indeed: with or without the possibility of PC death, grind and - not unrelated - poor mechanics can be an issue.

There are many ways and means of making combat less grindy, but nearly all of them carry a caveat: the combats will tend to become much more swingy and less predictable. While some - like me - would think this is great, not everyone would necessarily be on board with the increased chance of losing that a swingier combat system would present.

 

[Lanefan]

The only thing I have a problem with is when people say that you can't support different styles based on editions. When we played back in ye 'olden days, we didn't realize we were supposed to have multiple PCs and a high body count so we didn't.

The high body count is table-dependent but the multiple PCs idea is right there in the DMG. I don't recall offhand whether it's also mentioned in passing in the PH.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You'd be surprised how much of the OPs problem would be fixed with PC death, even if you don't like it. You would not have "a grind" when that grinding character(s) is dead.

Note I also mentioned negative things. A great example are things that take a PC out of the combat. Five PCs enter an area and engage in combat, and on the first round two of them are paralyzed. Round two of the combat will be radically different as it's JUST three PC, not five. And yes, two players have to sit there and do "nothing" for a couple minutes.

So... the plan to solve boring combats is... make them even more boring?

It's a bold move, I'll grant that.

Also, you really need to take out the game play style that, like movies and TV shows, that the "Heroes Must Always Win" . This is also has a HUGE impact. When the DM and players alter the game reality so the PCs always win/succeed/are successful you get the OP problems.

And remove parts from the fiction that inspires people to play! Even better.

And, yes, nearly all problems such as the ones mentioned in the OP are caused by play styles. Person one gets on a pedal bike and has no problem riding along on a smooth blacktop path. Person two picks a broken rocky path and they don't get far before falling off and saying "that bike does not work!"

Half the people complaining about combat here are already killing PCs. They're also the ones advocating morale, which would actually reduce lethality because the monsters run away. Please explain this phenomenon.

This 'solution' is just pushing a 'kids these days' narrative without touching on any of the issues people are actually having.

Again, how it seems to be shaping up is two schools of thought: Keep Combat boring, but find ways to avoid or bail on it, or fix combat. I guess the dead PCs are avoiding combat and players leaving the game in droves are doing the same, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

 

[Oofta]

The high body count is table-dependent but the multiple PCs idea is right there in the DMG. I don't recall offhand whether it's also mentioned in passing in the PH.

I know. We had multiple PCs once or twice to fill out the group but eventually they just became main PCs. I think we played around with the henchmen idea for a while as well but it didn't really stick, we just weren't that into the whole building a keep thing.

 

[overgeeked]

Indeed: with or without the possibility of PC death, grind and - not unrelated - poor mechanics can be an issue.

There are many ways and means of making combat less grindy, but nearly all of them carry a caveat: the combats will tend to become much more swingy and less predictable. While some - like me - would think this is great, not everyone would necessarily be on board with the increased chance of losing that a swingier combat system would present.

I think that's why they've designed the game around the notion of success being solidly pegged at around 65%. In 4E, if I remember right, that was always the case, they lined up the maths that way by design. So too in 5E. If you look at the PC level, proficiency bonus, and assumed stat mod by level compared to the AC chart for monsters by CR, you get...magically...65% to-hit at every level. I think there's exactly one level in 5E where this isn't the case. The game's designers seem to want to minimize the swing...and yet they still use the very swingy d20. Some things will never die.

 

[bloodtide]

So... the plan to solve boring combats is... make them even more boring

Character death in an RPG is anything except boring. You will see lots of drama and plenty of players just flip out.

And remove parts from the fiction that inspires people to play! Even better.

Your saying that for people to be insipred to play a RPG they have to know they will win/succeed? A fun game is where the players all know they will complete the quest 100%? Like really "well we will automatically save the princess no matter what...wow, I can't wait to see how we save her, lets start the game".

Half the people complaining about combat here are already killing PCs. They're also the ones advocating morale, which would actually reduce lethality because the monsters run away. Please explain this phenomenon.

Morale is a bit more complicated mechanical then you might think. But also you might have forgotten the OP was talking about ending long boring combats. One answer to that IS for a foes morale to break and for them to run away from the fight.

Again, how it seems to be shaping up is two schools of thought: Keep Combat boring, but find ways to avoid or bail on it, or fix combat. I guess the dead PCs are avoiding combat and players leaving the game in droves are doing the same, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

I guess you could go the route of "we need 100 pages of house rules to fix combat" or really just "a whole other RPG" if you want to, and you think that will fix things.

I'm just suggesting a couple changes to the game play style.

the great thing about D&D, the game has always been what and your group make it.

I agree. Though I'm also saying that if your play style is not working for you, like say you complain about "combat being long and boring", then you might want to look at changing your play style.