Why aren't all 9th level wizards rich?

[Nifft]

However, there are circumstances under which casting Wall of Iron, Fabricate, or even using lesser planar binding to get a Lantern Archont to make a zillion Everburning Torches is appropriet

Sure. That's why most PCs are able to use these spells in most games without needing to die.

(which are actuctually valued at 110 gp, incidentally - 2nd level spell, 3rd level caster, 50 gp component)

Huh. Well, whatever -- if you're a PC, you can only sell stuff for half price. So "actually" 55 gp.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Shin Okada]

Yeah, with very small cost of 50gp, a 12th wizard can create 5 ft by 60 ft by 3 inch of pure Iron. That is about 30,000 pounds. Iron is a trade goods which costs 1sp/pound. So, a 12th-level wizard can create 3,000 gp worth of trading goods per casting of 6th-level spell. And he is likely to cast it 3 times per day (2+ 1 from Int bonus) But usually, people just can't buy that 15 ton Iron chunk and take it to one's home. So. Someone, maybe hired metal workers, should cut it into the ingots of appropriate size before selling it. This process may cost much time and money I guess. And I doubt if one can sell 15 tons of iron every day in pre-modern world.

And anyway, a "challenging" encounter for a 12th level party gives 9,800 gp worth of treasure in average. So that wizard's share is 2,450 gp. A 12th-level wizard can cast that Wall of Iron 3 times per day. But average party can meat to handle 4 of "challenging" encounter per day.

So at least, heavy adventuring day is much profitable for even a 12th-level Wizard.

But anyway, don't think too much about economy or effect of strong casters in a fantasy world. Wall of Iron is just a small issue comparing to the existence of True Resurrection and healing spells spell. All the rich men and mens of high status live up to his maximum life span. Assassinating nobles are almost impossible. There is no tragic tale of young king died by disease, etc.

 

[Jack Simth]

Yeah, with very small cost of 50gp, a 12th wizard can create 5 ft by 60 ft by 3 inch of pure Iron. That is about 30,000 pounds. Iron is a trade goods which costs 1sp/pound. So, a 12th-level wizard can create 3,000 gp worth of trading goods per casting of 6th-level spell. And he is likely to cast it 3 times per day (2+ 1 from Int bonus) But usually, people just can't buy that 15 ton Iron chunk and take it to one's home. So. Someone, maybe hired metal workers, should cut it into the ingots of appropriate size before selling it. This process may cost much time and money I guess. And I doubt if one can sell 15 tons of iron every day in pre-modern world.

It's a trade good, not a product for sale - which means it is commonly treated as cash. You don't sell it, you use it to buy something.

As for what's done with all the iron? Yeah, the iron market should crash pretty quick.

And anyway, a "challenging" encounter for a 12th level party gives 9,800 gp worth of treasure in average. So that wizard's share is 2,450 gp. A 12th-level wizard can cast that Wall of Iron 3 times per day. But average party can meat to handle 4 of "challenging" encounter per day.

So at least, heavy adventuring day is much profitable for even a 12th-level Wizard.

More profitable? Well, if you ignore expenses, yes. Also a lot more dangerous - but that's the generally a part of the point of the, so...

But anyway, don't think too much about economy or effect of strong casters in a fantasy world. Wall of Iron is just a small issue comparing to the existence of True Resurrection and healing spells spell. All the rich men and mens of high status live up to his maximum life span. Assassinating nobles are almost impossible. There is no tragic tale of young king died by disease, etc.

That isn't entirely true:

Raise Dead costs 5,000 gp in diamonds; if you check the spellcasting services table, it notes (in a footnote) that additional costs bringing the total above 3,000 gp are not generally available - which means Raise Dead isn't a generally available spell.

And, after you assasinate someone, the way to make it stick is to steal the body, and Animate it, then preserve it and drop it off somewhere. Takes care of that right quick.

 

[Shin Okada]

It's a trade good, not a product for sale - which means it is commonly treated as cash. You don't sell it, you use it to buy something.

That is right. But iron as trading goods are expected to be a lot of ingots of appropriate size. Not a big 15 ton iron plate which you need giants to move. Who accepts a payment which he cannot bring back to his home? Before using it as currency, the wizard must crack it to pieces of appropriate size.

Raise Dead costs 5,000 gp in diamonds; if you check the spellcasting services table, it notes (in a footnote) that additional costs bringing the total above 3,000 gp are not generally available - which means Raise Dead isn't a generally available spell.

Well, though "not commonly available", all the bigger kingdoms have some higher level clerics. Those spells may not be available to common people. But I am talking about people with wealth and status.

And, stealing dead body does not work against True Resurrection spell.

But anyway, this is already off-topic from the original point of this thread.

 

[Jack Simth]

That is right. But iron as trading goods are expected to be a lot of ingots of appropriate size. Not a big 15 ton iron plate which you need giants to move. Who accepts a payment which he cannot bring back to his home? Before using it as currency, the wizard must crack it to pieces of appropriate size.

Yeah, his first purchase needs to be for an adamantine Greataxe or similar for use in cutting it up into little chunks. Or he just needs to cast Fabricate to turn iron plate to iron ignots.....

However he chooses to run it, it's not all that hard for the Wizard that can cast Wall of Iron in the first place.

Well, though "not commonly available", all the bigger kingdoms have some higher level clerics. Those spells may not be available to common people. But I am talking about people with wealth and status.

... you mean like basically every PC over level 9? While the cost is used to determine the threshold, it's not actually a factor on whether or not it's available.

Plus there's a secondary reason why someone might not be Raised - it's 5,000 gp for the basic Raise Dead in materials alone... and the heirs want to inherit, and there's all sorts of projects that 5,000 gp in diamonds could fund ... and someone other than the dead guy has control over the funds.

Besides - if it really worked the way you think, the very powerful wouldn't die off of old age, either - Reincarnate returns you to a young adult body.

And, stealing dead body does not work against True Resurrection spell.

Hence the part about Animating the body. Check the text of True Resurrection - the undead creature has to be destroyed before the living person it once was can be revived.

But anyway, this is already off-topic from the original point of this thread.

Eh, basic drift.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Hence the part about Animating the body. ...

There has been threads (at least one really long one that I remember) discussing ways to permanently and irrevocably eliminate an enemy. The only suggestions that had any hope involved epic-level or god-like abilities. There were some really complex and difficult schemes, but for the most part, they were impractical. In any case, if you really want a really long discussion on ways to dispose of enemies in D&D, I recommend a dedicated thread.

 

[Fifth Element]

Have you seen the wealth by level guidelines in the DMG? 9th-level wizards ARE rich.

 

[Cbas_10]

This will probably make all the DM's scream, but...

Intelligence being the primary ability, a wizard probably has at least a +2 modifier.
So, just putting 4 - 6 skill points in Craft; Armorsmithing and the Fabricate spell would provide you with 250 (Banded mail) to 1500 (Full Plate) each day for one-third the cost. And how many 9th level Wizards don't have 90 gp for materials?

Two points to consider (purely DM rulings that inject realism more than simply putting a stop to the character):

• By game statistics, an item might function just as well as a normally crafted item, but the rules certainly don't say anything about its appearance, fit, or function. The item might look horrible, armor might take extra time to don/remove due to a bad fit, swords might need to be constantly re-sharpened. Again...this is where rules give way to realism in a manner that is not down to "Shutting the players down".

• Bring in economics and the rule of Supply and Demand. Start flooding the city market with sets of full plate for 1500gp each. There may be no rule for it, but anyone who was conscious for high school economics will realize that you will quickly produce more than demand will need at the rate of one suit per day. Such a wizard might be able to take advantage of a war-time situation, but if that wizard expects the kingdom to buy armor in volume for the same prices as a single set....they've been licking a few too many toad familiars.

Then, if we bring Wall of Iron into the picture as a way to provide raw materials...what is the guarantee that the iron is any good? Sure, it provides standard 10 hardness and 30 hp/inch. Maybe the iron is subject to rust & corrosion more than other grades of iron (and its hardness or AC value drops over time)...maybe it is more difficult to work, thus requiring a higher DC to craft into armor (either traditionally or via Fabricate).

In any case, none of this magically crafted armor should be able to be made into masterwork armor. In my opinion, the masterwork "componenet" requires the finesse and expertise of intricate hand-work and skilled manipulation of the artisan's tools.

 

[UltimaGabe]

There has been threads (at least one really long one that I remember) discussing ways to permanently and irrevocably eliminate an enemy. The only suggestions that had any hope involved epic-level or god-like abilities. There were some really complex and difficult schemes, but for the most part, they were impractical. In any case, if you really want a really long discussion on ways to dispose of enemies in D&D, I recommend a dedicated thread.

Here's what you do. Lure them onto a pocket Demiplane (created by a 20th-level Cleric with the Genesis spell [Complete Divine], or by a high-level Plane Shifter [Manual of the Planes]), and have the creator of said plane name it something like "Freeport" or "Waterdeep" or "Bob's House". Ambush them, and cast Imprisonment on them. Assuming they fail their save, they'll be Imprisoned on this pocket Demiplane. Now, they'll be effectively out of the picture, but they're not dead- so even True Resurrection won't do anything. Additionally, any time their allies cast Discern Location, it doesn't give their location, since they're on a Demiplane- according to the Discern Location description, it simply gives the caster the name of the Demiplane. So the caster just knows, "Oh, High Lord Xavier is.... at Bob's House?"

Oh, and to make things worse (with a little adjuducation from the DM), you could have had them previously et some skin/hair/blood etc. of the person you wish to erase. Make a Clone of them. Once they're imprisoned, cast a carefully-worded Wish spell to allow another soul to inhabit the Cloned body. (Since the person isn't actually dead, the Clone is simply inert flesh.) I suggest you use a demon or something for this purpose. Then, once that body is up and about, cast another carefully-worded Wish spell to cause all divinations seeking information about the Imprisoned creature to instead seek information about the Clone. That way, as far as anybody will be able to tell, the creature in question IS alive, and, if he/she was previously a good creature, is now rampaging across the countryside slaying everyone he/she comes across. And even if his friends somehow find out that it's not really him (but with all of the evidence against that, how would they?), they then have to deal with the "Bob's House" problem.

Does that work?

 

[czak808]

xxx