Why aren't all outsiders on the core Summon Monster lists?

[Olive]

I've just been writing up the summon monster expansions from the BoED and the FF, and I was going to do a similar thing for the BoVD using the article in Dragon#302.

I noticed that not all the demons in the MM (the babau for example) are on the list in the PHB. Any idea why?

edit: it's worth noting that not all the outsiders in the BoED and the FF have summon moster spell levels, even in the CR 1-13 range recomended by Dragon 302...

 

[Li Shenron]

You'd better ask the authors

I wondered the same when I first read the 3ed corebooks: with the CR system being more or less usable, I don't see the point of a restricted list. The spells could even not have a list and just say something like "SM V lets you summon a CR 3 outsider", for example (although I am not sure if 3 would be the correct CR.

Your doubt is especially meaningful when you think of the fact that there are SM spells which let you summon a Celestial animal, but not the Fiendish version of the same animal, when they are very similar.

 

[Olive]

Yeah, I more or less let players swap templates out, and that includes axiomatic and anarchic as well as the elemental templates too...

 

[Grazzt]

You'd better ask the authors

I wondered the same when I first read the 3ed corebooks: with the CR system being more or less usable, I don't see the point of a restricted list. The spells could even not have a list and just say something like "SM V lets you summon a CR 3 outsider", for example (although I am not sure if 3 would be the correct CR.

Your doubt is especially meaningful when you think of the fact that there are SM spells which let you summon a Celestial animal, but not the Fiendish version of the same animal, when they are very similar.

We actually do something similar IMC. I dont use the lists, just allow each spell to summon a certain monster(s) based on CR. The type (fiendish or celestial) is based on the summoner's alignment.

 

[Li Shenron]

We actually do something similar IMC. I dont use the lists, just allow each spell to summon a certain monster(s) based on CR. The type (fiendish or celestial) is based on the summoner's alignment.

For curiosity, which CR do you assign to each spell? Because the list has creatures with different CRs for same summon spell and creatures with same CR but in different spells...

 

[ruleslawyer]

The problem is that outsiders of similar CR often have abilities of wildly varying usefulness to a typical party (at least I find that this is the case; in particular, teleportation and many other at-will SLAs can have a utility substantially higher than raw CR would indicate). Still, I'd love to see your system, Scott!

 

[Li Shenron]

The problem is that outsiders of similar CR often have abilities of wildly varying usefulness to a typical party (at least I find that this is the case; in particular, teleportation and many other at-will SLAs can have a utility substantially higher than raw CR would indicate). Still, I'd love to see your system, Scott!

Indeed. It could be also the other way around (e.g. a summoned creature cannot use its own summoning abilities). The writers probably took the individual abilities into account, but it would have been nice if the list had been much richer than what it is.

 

[dcollins]

I already thought that Summon Monster was overly powerful in 3.0 with the lists the size they were, plus the ability to pick the perfect ally at any time (in contrast to prior ruleset's random rolling for the summoned monster). More options = more power, and giving access to any arbitrary outsider is overpowered.

In our current campaign we let spellcasters spend a feat to gain access to non-core summoning choices. (Prereq: 5 ranks in Knowledge: the Planes or thereabouts.)

 

[The Souljourner]

I think that for creatures without significant non-combat abilities (like celestial animals), using CR is fine (what CR could be determined from looking at the ones in the lists).

For creatures with significant out-of-combat abilities (like a unicorn), it's probably better to use ECL. ECL is calculated according to how useful the abilities are to a PC, so I think that would keep you from being able to get ridiculous abilities, just because the CR may be low.

Not sure how that system works with the current lists, but I think with some tweaking, you could probably double or triple the length of the lists (a straight "you can get x CR" is probably a bad idea).

-The Souljourner

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

For creatures with significant out-of-combat abilities (like a unicorn), it's probably better to use ECL. ECL is calculated according to how useful the abilities are to a PC, so I think that would keep you from being able to get ridiculous abilities, just because the CR may be low.

A good idea, but it is impractical to apply such a wide fudge factor.

A Unicorn is CR 3 so it is "level 3" on one hand; OTOH it has a +4 LA, making it a "level 8" creature. That is too big a difference to weigh on the subjective judgement of how useful out of combat a creature is.