Why aren't paladins liked?

[Mystic_23]

In a FR game I played in, I played a LG Cleric of Helm and another guy played a Paladin of Helm. Despite both of us being Lawful Good we weren't overbearing or arrogant. They actually ended up being played somewhat like College Frat Boys.

The rest of the group nicknamed us "The Helm Twins".

Of course, this led to jokes such as "Helm Twins Powers Activate!"

If you don't get the joke, you're too young!

Laters.

 

[mrtauntaun]

A lot of these treads focus on all of the same types of themes. Myself, I love to play paladins, always have. I enjoy being the shining becon of light. I enjoy being a 'stick in the mud' about the little things, but as my characters grow older and advance in level, they tend to undergo a transformation. They gain greater insight, come to know they can't go it alone, and to rely on his friends and allies. It is up to the player to best play his character and interpreting the code. If the DM demands strict adhearence to the code, then that's a bad DM. I have even played a fallen paladin, an action i took quite deliberately because my character objected to the current situation. A lot of players take the attitude "I've fallen from grace, screw it, im making a new character". What a lot of players don't relize is that attempting to regain your blessed status can be an awful lot of fun! Attonement can take many forms, and a creative DM can make for hours of enjoyable gamplay out of it.
I've also read that Paladins can not travel or work with Evil PCs. Also not true. If the Evil player is truly creative, and a bit sneaky, it can be pulled off. Case and point, I played in a campaign (playing a paladin at the time) where my group was teleported back in time to a period of civil war, thousands of years previous. Shortly after we arrived, my character died in my most glorious death EVER (but that's another story). I had an apprentice, another player started taking paladin levels and was my pupil. Now that he was without a teacher, he took the role of party leader and paladin upon himself. The new character I created was evil to the core. A NE wizard, but the DM allowed me to start with a magic ring which prevented attempts to detect my alignment, thusly revealing an absence of evil to the paladins detect evil. Throughout the course of many, many adventrues, i convinced the other players i was a patriot being held prisoner unjustly by one of the warring factions. I did everything a good character would, rescued the characters, stuck my neck out, etc, all because it fit with this characters goals. He used the PCs to get what he wanted. The players helped him destroy all other warring factions, which he told them were evil and cruel, and returned to their own time. They were puzzeled why i wanted my character to remain behind, but when they consulted a history tome in their now-different present, they saw that my character became a ruthless dicatator, reignin for hundreds of years governing a vast evil empire. I barely escaped that evening with my skin
There are lots of ways to get around working with a paladin in the group, I hope this little (too long) tale helped open a few doors to that degree.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Not being able to lie is not a problem in the least, there is never an instance where you are required to lie at any time in a game. (Silence is not a lie. Telling someone to go screw themself is not a lie, it's a command. Telling them "I can't say" is not a lie, especially when you really can't say.)

Telling them "I can't say" just gave them the answer they want. (Or they can just torture you.)

Now what if the best way to resolve a situation is to enter a thieves' guild? Of course they'll ask you who they are.

The paladin will say "I've got another solution, not quite as good, but it means I don't have to lie" and then wonder why the rest of the party is giving him hateful glares...

A Paladin can use stealth, flanking, sneak attacks, favorable terrain, and other tactics. A paladin can have sex, enjoy a beer with his buddies, have nice clothes and gear, and take his share of the treasure. (Although being charitable is a good thing, being charitable to the extreme that you lose your ability to fight evil is not wise, you're a crusader, it's the priest's job to help feed the poor, you're keeping the poor from being eaten by ogres. You're helping, but in a different way.)

Stealth as a last resort - straight from the Player's Handbook. A paladin/rogue can work because of flanking, but you'll just have to give up on the sneak attacks.

Folks get so wrapped up with being SO DARN Lawful and SO DARN Good that they play their character like they want to be the most gee-wizz Lawfullest Goodest most Lawfully Lawful person who ever was Good at being Lawfully Lawful Good, in a Lawful manner, mind you.

Not surprising, since you're following a code stricter than lawful good.

I find it strange though that that people claim that an LG cleric of righteousness isn't as strict as a paladin. It certainly shouldn't always be the case since clerics have codes of their own.

The PH doesn't list cleric codes, other than "stay within your alignment" and certainly doesn't have strict things like "can't lie".

 

[Green Knight]

A paladin/rogue can work because of flanking, but you'll just have to give up on the sneak attacks.

No you wouldn't. Check the Book of Exalted Deeds. They present a Rogue/Paladin NPC and make NO MENTION of his not being able to use Sneak Attack. For a book which went into extensive detail as to how a Paladin must accept a surrender, and how you can use Diplomacy to redeem a prisoner, you'd think they would've mentioned something along the lines of "Oh, this Rogue/Paladin NPC we put here? He can't use Sneak Attack". The description of the Sneak Attack ability also references the Slayer of Domiel Prestige Class in the book, which is a Lawful Good Prestige Class in that same book which has Sneak Attack as a class ability.

 

[Green Knight]

Hope there's no problem with me posting this. Not like I'm posting the entire book, or even an entire Prestige Class, after all. Just a description of an NPC as well as abilities which can be found in the SRD.

 

[Quasqueton]

So, with all the restrictions, why aren't paladins given a little extra power to make up for it?

If paladins essentially have to take the hard way (straight and up front), why don't they have some extra abilities to support this method of operation? Like a constant protection from evil (like in the older editions of the game)? Or a bonus to AC based on Charisma (like monks have with Wisdom)? Or bonus hit points based on Charisma?

As it is, it seems paladins are expected to take the harder road, but they have no support from their diety (or the universal powers of Law and Good) to aid them above what is balanced with other classes without the "harder road" code.

Quasqueton

 

[CrusaderX]

There's nothing wrong with the Paladin class, except maybe for the following:

So, with all the restrictions, why aren't paladins given a little extra power to make up for it?

Agreed. Following 3.5 rules, I'd give the Paladin a good Will save, and I'd throw in a free Mounted Combat feat when they gain their mount.

 

[Parlan]

The truth is, Paladins have a lot of stigam attached to them, mostly from those two groups. A good aligned party would have no problems with taking a surrendering prisoner to justice, in fact, as a DM, you should slide them to neutral if they make a habit of not accepting surrender. (Not all the way to evil, unless they were particularly creative in their surrendering BBEG habits ) Not being able to lie is not a problem in the least, there is never an instance where you are required to lie at any time in a game. (Silence is not a lie. Telling someone to go screw themself is not a lie, it's a command. Telling them "I can't say" is not a lie, especially when you really can't say.)

(For the inevitable "What if lying to the BBEG is the only way to save the world?" question, the answer is "That would never happen except under theoretical circumstances. In any game, there are multiple choices that could result in sucess. If you do that scenario as a DM, you are railroading, and railroading is bad DMing.)

On the other hand, you can't kill someone just because they are evil. You can watch that person, but you can't slaughter them. Even if you catch them doing something evil, killing them isn't a good idea, unless that is the only answer. If you kill someone for stealing, you are lawful evil.

A Paladin can use stealth, flanking, sneak attacks, favorable terrain, and other tactics. A paladin can have sex, enjoy a beer with his buddies, have nice clothes and gear, and take his share of the treasure. (Although being charitable is a good thing, being charitable to the extreme that you lose your ability to fight evil is not wise, you're a crusader, it's the priest's job to help feed the poor, you're keeping the poor from being eaten by ogres. You're helping, but in a different way.)

Wow, heck of a good post!

Because they personify heroic fantas, I really like playing paladins, but only when the DM sees them as you describe above. If they want me to play lawful stupid, or are only going to try to prove how stupid the paladins code is according to "post-post-modern philosophy" or whatever, I d rather play something else.

Do you mind if I use this post to screen future DMs?

 

[Cyberhawk]

I always thought that the movie Excalibur had two great examples of Paladins: Galahad and Lancelot. Galahad being pure and noble finds the grail. Lancelot is the great warrior..until he sleeps with the king's wife (chosing love over honor) at which point he becomes a Fallen Paladin.
Great dramatic stuff. (and Lancelot even redeems himself in the end).

The only problem that I run into is that I continually run up against DMs on the 'lawful' part of the code. I see it as "strong personal code" and they see it as "following the rule of law". And since the Paladin has the morality code hard-wired into the class abillities it means a lot of "you just lost your abilities". ~good thing I'm not bitter or anything ~

 

[Voadam]

So, with all the restrictions, why aren't paladins given a little extra power to make up for it?

If paladins essentially have to take the hard way (straight and up front), why don't they have some extra abilities to support this method of operation? Like a constant protection from evil (like in the older editions of the game)? Or a bonus to AC based on Charisma (like monks have with Wisdom)? Or bonus hit points based on Charisma?

As it is, it seems paladins are expected to take the harder road, but they have no support from their diety (or the universal powers of Law and Good) to aid them above what is balanced with other classes without the "harder road" code.

Quasqueton

Paladins are deliberately designed to be mechanically balanced with other classes not considering their roleplaying restrictions.

If you took away their code, alignment and multiclassingrestrictions they are supposed to still be balanced with straight fighters and clerics.

Same thing for monks, barbarians, and clerics.

The restrictions are flavor restrictions, not mechanical power detriments.