Why aren't these spells rituals?

[Yunru]

Honestly, how much would it break the game if ALL spells could be considered rituals? I mean, it makes casters much more versatile and useful outside of having limited slots. Besides, in pressure (combat, etc.) you couldn't use a ritual since it takes so long, so what really is the downside?

Well first, why would you play anything else, ever?

Second, and I don't even have to detail these, they're that bad; At-will Wish. At-will Simulacrum. At-will Animate Dead. At-will Create Dead. At-will Foresight. At-will 6th level spells. At-will 7th level spells. At-will 8th level spells. At-will 9th level spells. (At-will Meteor Swarm.) At-will Conjure X spells. Etc.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Because a lot of other classes have abilities that don't require 10 MINUTES or longer of time to execute.

So, while some of those are valid points, look at the levels you are talking about. How many campaigns get played to Epic level for Wish, for instance? From what I have read here, it doesn't seem like many (most focus on getting into Tier 3 IME).

Besides, if you look at the worst case example (i.e. Wish), if you use it for other purposes there is a 1 in 3 chance you can never cast it again. Who would want to risk losing the most powerful spell in the game by possibly abusing ritual castings?

Unless someone has tried this, no one can really know how much a difference it would make. As the other post said, allowing ritual castings by spending a Hit Die, has there been any abuse there?

 

[Yunru]

Because a lot of other classes have abilities that don't require 10 MINUTES or longer of time to execute.

And so would every class that gets ritual casting.

Also 6th+ lvl spells are just the most obvious. Animate Dead, Scrying, etc. Would all be very abusable, just off the top of my head.

 

[Sadras]

I do admit, I find it kind of interesting that most people (from what I have read, anyway) are fine with Cantrips being at will, but dislike other spells being at will. Honestly, how much would it break the game if ALL spells could be considered rituals? I mean, it makes casters much more versatile and useful outside of having limited slots. Besides, in pressure (combat, etc.) you couldn't use a ritual since it takes so long, so what really is the downside?

Yeah Cantrips are another gremlin which I haven't found something I'm honestly happy with. I'm slowly building up a modified 5e for our next campaign, some 2 years away so theoretically I still have time to come up with something.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Let's look at Scrying, for instance.

Since the duration is 10 minutes, you cast is as a ritual (which takes 10 minutes), you at best get a 10-minutes-on-10-minutes-off effect. Also, every time a save is permitted if the target doesn't want to be seen. Additionally, once it succeeds in a save, you can't attempt it again for 24 hours.

How about Animate Dead.

Assuming you find the bodies, and cast it as a ritual four times, you can then control up to four skeletons or zombies as a time since each control requires a bonus action. So, allowing it as a ritual means those casters would simply have the slot available to them otherwise.

If you are worried about these ritual uses being cast using a higher level slot (such as a 9th-level slot for Animate Dead, eventually giving you up 22 skeletons or zombies), limit them to the base spell level when cast as rituals.

You can also make it something where it is level-based or proficiency bonus-based. Such as you can cast spells you know of levels equal to or less than your proficiency bonus as rituals. That way, even at the highest tier, it would be 6th-level spells and lower.

 

[Yunru]

Let's look at Scrying, for instance.

Since the duration is 10 minutes, you cast is as a ritual (which takes 10 minutes), you at best get a 10-minutes-on-10-minutes-off effect. Also, every time a save is permitted if the target doesn't want to be seen. Additionally, once it succeeds in a save, you can't attempt it again for 24 hours.

How about Animate Dead.

Assuming you find the bodies, and cast it as a ritual four times, you can then control up to four skeletons or zombies as a time since each control requires a bonus action. So, allowing it as a ritual means those casters would simply have the slot available to them otherwise.

If you are worried about these ritual uses being cast using a higher level slot (such as a 9th-level slot for Animate Dead, eventually giving you up 22 skeletons or zombies), limit them to the base spell level when cast as rituals.

Scrying doesn't require a svae if you target an area.

Animate dead allows to control as many as you like with the same bonus action, and once raised you can assert control over 4 per casting.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Scrying doesn't require a svae if you target an area.

Animate dead allows to control as many as you like with the same bonus action, and once raised you can assert control over 4 per casting.

True, scrying an area doesn't involve a save, but it is still an on-off thing since the duration limit per casting is 10 minutes.

Ah... my mistake, I misread the description. I was reading the section on controlling, not commanding. But that doesn't change the fact that there are very real limits. If a caster (using limiting it to only 3rd-level slots) spent a work-day (8 hours) doing nothing but animating dead, he could have a small army of 44 skeletons or zombies. But, he would also have to spend over two hours each day casting it again to retain control given the 24-hour limit. Now, an army of zombie ogres and such would be hard to defeat, but would also be an awesome adventure!

Speaking of which, I recently ran an adventure inside an evil shrine with dozens of skeletons and zombies, and with the RAW there is no way the cultist priest could have made so many, let alone retaining control over them.

 

[TwoSix]

Speaking of which, I recently ran an adventure inside an evil shrine with dozens of skeletons and zombies, and with the RAW there is no way the cultist priest could have made so many, let alone retaining control over them.

Anybody with animate dead can make hundreds of skeletons/zombies, given enough corpses and time. They don't disappear after 24 hours, they just shuffle around uncommanded, and only defend themselves if attacked.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Yeah, but they just stand there and only defend themselves, they really are much use IMO. Under those rules, the party could have just walked around the undead and basically ignored them. The ability to command them to act is what really limits the spell if you made it a ritual.

 

[MarkB]

I do admit, I find it kind of interesting that most people (from what I have read, anyway) are fine with Cantrips being at will, but dislike other spells being at will. Honestly, how much would it break the game if ALL spells could be considered rituals? I mean, it makes casters much more versatile and useful outside of having limited slots. Besides, in pressure (combat, etc.) you couldn't use a ritual since it takes so long, so what really is the downside?

Sure, I'll take that for Wall of Stone and go into construction. At 20 minutes per 1000 square feet, I could get a decent-sized town knocked up in a week or so.