OSR Why B/X?

[Warpiglet-7]

Even just generating a treasure in 5E requires way too much page flipping. And WotC seems to have wanted selecting and using magic items to be as user-unfriendly as possible, despite filling dozens of pages with them.

It would be hard to make a worse mechanism for treasure generation than the 5E ones if WotC had tried. And the fact that they could look back on stuff like the 1E Monster Manual treasure table and not say "surely we can make it more logical and easy to use than that" makes it even worse.

The magic item tables are still ponderous to me.

I am no novice but they are not designed for free wheeling play play or improvising.

We used to go off the rails in 1e and there would be treasure rolls at the table. 5e organization does not really help with that nonsense.

 

[cbwjm]

And a magic user is using a spell to thwart a beholder’s attack.

I remember this one, I always assumed it was the beholder doing the thwarting.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

We used to go off the rails in 1e and there would be treasure rolls at the table. 5e organization does not really help with that nonsense.

When I run Shadowdark, I specifically leave most of the treasure characters find during the adventure as random, and have them roll on the fly. (There are also bespoke treasure hoards that I make ahead of time.) The rulebook is perfectly set up for that, including developing detailed random magic items with a few quick rolls. It's super-fun.

All I can hope is that WotC is looking at everyone else's rulebooks when putting together the 2024 DMG, since there are so many ways to do it better.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

When I run Shadowdark, I specifically leave most of the treasure characters find during the adventure as random, and have them roll on the fly. (There are also bespoke treasure hoards that I make ahead of time.) The rulebook is perfectly set up for that, including developing detailed random magic items with a few quick rolls. It's super-fun.

All I can hope is that WotC is looking at everyone else's rulebooks when putting together the 2024 DMG, since there are so many ways to do it better.

I have little need for the phb…

But would have no problem buying a dmg with a good index and treasure table/magic item table organization!

If it really is going to be compatible as they say…

 

[cavalier973]

I remember this one, I always assumed it was the beholder doing the thwarting.

Someone said it like that, in an earlier post, which is why I said it the other way, just to be funny.

 

[deganawida]

Honestly? B/X is raw fantasy. It’s fantasy before it was codified by the rules of AD&D, by the publishers, by players, and by us geeks. Do you like He-Man? Do you like Beastmaster? Do you like Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit? Do you like Gummy Bears? Dragon’s Lair? Recluse and Vance? Space wizards vs knights? Delving into deep tombs or exploring ancient ruins? The actual D&D cartoon, or Thundar the Barbarian? All that is included within B/X’s broad umbrella. Whereas Gygax seemed to want to adapt a medieval world to fantasy with Greyhawk, B/X embraces the weirdness of the fantasy genre as it existed prior to, say, 1988, and runs with it. Owlbears, for example, don’t need an ecology; they are aberrations, magically created beings. They don’t fit into the world because of just that. They are WEIRD. You want to have characters where they players define how they fit into the world? B/X is your jam. Characters aren’t solely defined by their classes, but how they are played, and how they approach problems. Classes are so broad and nonspecific that they cover so many concepts, and it that goal of being archetypal.

I dunno. A few of the points I made above can be done with other editions. I just don’t think any other edition (or fantasy game, to be honest) hits them all at once. B/X does. The level range, while weird for us modern thinkers, works perfectly. Vancian casting actually has meaning, in that you have to search out spells and bargain. It’s not murder hobo, as you want to be efficient. Weirdness is there, without any attempt at being banal or common. Exception-based design means you can change one system without detrimentally affecting other systems. Ability scores make far more sense.

Sure, you have races-as-classes, but that WORKS. Apart from Drizzt, how often is the main character of a story series a nonhuman? When you encounter a dwarf, they are a DWARF; they fight just as good as fighters, but are tougher. Elves? Elves are WEIRD. They can fight AND cast spells.

I don’t know if the above makes sense to anyone but me, but one thing that I love about B/X is it’s unapologetic embrace of all the incongruities and imbalances of a fantasy world where things from folk lore, science fiction, adventure fiction, and common sense come together.

B/X is Weird Fiction. If that’s not your thing, best to ignore it. However, its broad pedigree gives it a flexibility that is unrivaled amongst TTRPGs, and lends extraordinary credence to its viability as a universal OSR translation system.

Edit to add: I started with 2e, and that’s still my favorite edition. Im currently playing in a 5e campaign, and have spent a ridiculous amount of money on it. That said, B/X is THE gold standard for me. Nothing else really approaches it IMHO.

 

[Reynard]

Honestly? B/X is raw fantasy. It’s fantasy before it was codified by the rules of AD&D, by the publishers, by players, and by us geeks. Do you like He-Man? Do you like Beastmaster? Do you like Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit? Do you like Gummy Bears? Dragon’s Lair? Recluse and Vance? Space wizards vs knights? Delving into deep tombs or exploring ancient ruins? The actual D&D cartoon, or Thundar the Barbarian? All that is included within B/X’s broad umbrella. Whereas Gygax seemed to want to adapt a medieval world to fantasy with Greyhawk, B/X embraces the weirdness of the fantasy genre as it existed prior to, say, 1988, and runs with it. Owlbears, for example, don’t need an ecology; they are aberrations, magically created beings. They don’t fit into the world because of just that. They are WEIRD. You want to have characters where they players define how they fit into the world? B/X is your jam. Characters aren’t solely defined by their classes, but how they are played, and how they approach problems. Classes are so broad and nonspecific that they cover so many concepts, and it that goal of being archetypal.

I dunno. A few of the points I made above can be done with other editions. I just don’t think any other edition (or fantasy game, to be honest) hits them all at once. B/X does. The level range, while weird for us modern thinkers, works perfectly. Vancian casting actually has meaning, in that you have to search out spells and bargain. It’s not murder hobo, as you want to be efficient. Weirdness is there, without any attempt at being banal or common. Exception-based design means you can change one system without detrimentally affecting other systems. Ability scores make far more sense.

Sure, you have races-as-classes, but that WORKS. Apart from Drizzt, how often is the main character of a story series a nonhuman? When you encounter a dwarf, they are a DWARF; they fight just as good as fighters, but are tougher. Elves? Elves are WEIRD. They can fight AND cast spells.

I don’t know if the above makes sense to anyone but me, but one thing that I love about B/X is it’s unapologetic embrace of all the incongruities and imbalances of a fantasy world where things from folk lore, science fiction, adventure fiction, and common sense come together.

B/X is Weird Fiction. If that’s not your thing, best to ignore it. However, its broad pedigree gives it a flexibility that is unrivaled amongst TTRPGs, and lends extraordinary credence to its viability as a universal OSR translation system.

Edit to add: I started with 2e, and that’s still my favorite edition. Im currently playing in a 5e campaign, and have spent a ridiculous amount of money on it. That said, B/X is THE gold standard for me. Nothing else really approaches it IMHO.

I agree with most of that, except: is there anything in B/X that is inherently more weird fiction than OD&D or AD&D?

 

[deganawida]

I agree with most of that, except: is there anything in B/X that is inherently more weird fiction than OD&D or AD&D?

I would say, yes, in that B/X doesn’t try to fit it into the world. It’s just weird, you know? Sometimes you come across bandits, and sometimes you come across weird things that want to eat your brains. It’s all in the life of an adventurer.

I guess it comes down, to me, with a problem of how Gygax wanted to codify and fit everything into his world as part of his world. Not everything in the real world makes sense.

 

[Reynard]

I would say, yes, in that B/X doesn’t try to fit it into the world. It’s just weird, you know? Sometimes you come across bandits, and sometimes you come across weird things that want to eat your brains. It’s all in the life of an adventurer.

Sure, but I don't see this being any different in OD&D and AD&D. I think both 2E and BECMI did reduce the inherent weirdness of D&D and pull it toward the more typical medieval romance/80s fantasy lit feel, but most of the weird you are talking about emerged from OD&D and AD&D. My B/X books don't actually include a lot of weird in and of themselves.

I guess it comes down, to me, with a problem of how Gygax wanted to codify and fit everything into his world as part of his world. Not everything in the real world makes sense.

Never having been a fan of Greyhawk, I don't know how he "de-weirded" D&D to fit Greyhawk. However, I know that Golarion is largely inspired by Greyhawk by fans of Greyhawk and it is pretty weird.

 

[deganawida]

Sure, but I don't see this being any different in OD&D and AD&D. I think both 2E and BECMI did reduce the inherent weirdness of D&D and pull it toward the more typical medieval romance/80s fantasy lit feel, but most of the weird you are talking about emerged from OD&D and AD&D. My B/X books don't actually include a lot of weird in and of themselves.

Never having been a fan of Greyhawk, I don't know how he "de-weirded" D&D to fit Greyhawk. However, I know that Golarion is largely inspired by Greyhawk by fans of Greyhawk and it is pretty weird.

Fair enough. I never actually got to play 1st Edition. As a result, I may be selling it short.