D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a 3.5 fighter?

[Nifft]

If you gave the Fighter Create Water at will, it wouldn't make it a better class.

Monk gets a handful of extremely limited magical abilities, many of them not until well past when spellcasters can do it (and better) anyway, none of them particularly helpful to the monk's combat role or skills, or anything else.

Monks aren't great, but they do have a niche. Specifically, their niche is killing spellcasters.

The Monk's defensive suite of abilities is truly great. They have the best saves in the game, along with Evasion and an Insight bonus to AC (which works against Touch attacks). They grapple (or stun), they Tumble through ranks of minions or Jump right over them, and eventually they get SR -- Monks are made to be a Wizard's nightmare.

Of course, it turns out that Wizards are a low percentage of all foes in the game, so the Monk doesn't actually get to shine very often. But at least he has a niche, and he has something that he does better than anyone else (having awesome passive defenses) -- though it should be noted that defense alone can't win fights.

Two levels of Monk are an excellent defensive mix-in.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Walking Dad]

I was speaking in generalities. I know how rage works, how stances work, and I let the buffer tell me what bonus they are giving. Yeah I have seen the PA spreadsheets. I never needed one to figure out the 1:1 2:1 ratios.

How about my last point? Because you just want to? Got an answer for that? Maybe I'm just wrong on that one too. Seriously, if you are trying to argue that playing a fighter requires as much mental energy as other classes that possess the same amount of "actions" or fiddly bits from class features/spells, I have no way to counter that. I can't reason with madness.

I simply said all that energy you'd be devoting to -additional- number crunching could potentially be spent thinking about the character itself and where it fits in the world. He asked why anyone would play a fighter so I gave him his answer. Those are the reasons I'd play one.

Speaking in generalities often covers for having no real arguments. If you know how everything works? Why it is so complicated? For rage, you could just make a quicksheet with the changed stats. Done. And having the buffer say that you are one size bigger with a +2 to Str has nearly the same difficulties to adjust as if you have buffed yourself.

Cannot argue about the workings of different minds. If the mental energy to use the various rules of the combat maneuvers is easy for you, fine. I prefer a warlock over remembering them, BTW. It is just a matter of taste, but I can see your point.

...

The Fighter's flavor and playability comes from the player. Almost every other class out there has it's own flavor, it's own specific way to play that class. The Fighter is Tabula Rasa for D&D. Do what you want, how you want it, with whatever you want to do it with.

See my post on the page before (standard posts/page) regarding this.

You forgot monk. But that's ok, everyone seems to forget monk. As I sit here bemused at people calling NOT the worst class in the PHB the worst class in the game...

Cannot argue this. But at least the monk is less likely to be charmed/dominated to become an enemy of the group. And he can deal reasonable subdual damage to the fighter who is...

 

[Jacob Marley]

I reiterate my request that someone else come up with a fighter build to demonstrate their point that a fighter can be a powerful, versatile combatant.

Regdar, Human Fighter and Tordek, Dwarf Fighter.

 

[Dandu]

Human Fighter 12
Str 16 (20), Dex 12 (14), Con 14 (16), Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 10
Initiative +6
AC 22 (+2 Dex +7 armor +2 shield +1 deflection)
hit points 106
Fort +14 (+8 +3 Con +3 resistance), Will +8 (+4 -1 Wis +3 resistance +2 misc), Ref +9 (+4 +2 Dex +3 resistance)
BAB +12/+7/+2, melee +17, ranged +14, grapple +17
Speed 40 feet

Feats: EWP (bastard sword) (B), Iron Will, Blind-Fight, Skill focus (UMD), Magical Affinity, Point Blank Shot, W focus (bastard sword), W Spec (bastard sword), W focus (longbow), W Spec (longbow), Precise Shot, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes.
Skills: Handle Animal 5 (+5), Climb 6 (+9), Jump 6 (+9), Listen 7 (+6), Ride 15 (+17, rapid dismount +15), Spellcraft 1 (+5), Spot 7 (+6), Use Magic Device 7 (+12).

Attacks:
+3 bastard sword +21/+16/+11 1d10+10/19-20
+3 bastard sword (two-handed) +20/+15/+10 1d10+12/19-20 (drops AC by 2)
+1 composite longbow +18/+13/+8 1d8+9/x3 (drops AC by 2)
cold iron morningstar +17/+12/+7

Adult Black Dragon, CR 11
Large Dragon
Initiative: +4
HP: 199 (19d12+76)
Speed: 60 ft, fly 150 (poor), swim 60
AC: 27 (-1 size, +18 natural), touch 9, flat footed 27
Base attack/Grapple: +19/+29
Attack: +24
1 bite: 2d6 +6
2 claws: 1d8 +3
2 wings: 1d8 +3
1 tail slap 1d6 +3
Breath Weapon: 12d4 acid damage, reflex DC 23
Frightful Presence DC: 20
Blindsense 60 ft
DR5/Magic
Darkness 3/day, radius 60 ft
Corrupt Water 1/day

Feats:
Power Attack, Blind Fight, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Snatch

Casts spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer
Spells known (1st level only):
Mage Armor
Shield
Obscuring Mist

Spells/day
1st level: 6+1

Skills: Hide 22, Move Silently 22, Listen 23, Search 23, Spot 23, Concentration 26, Use Magic Device 22

Equipment:
2 Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell, Lesser. 6000 gp total
10 wands of CLW, 7500 gp total

Please elucidate how you are "totally able to go toe to toe with" this CR appropriate dragon.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

you play a fighter because you are like "I wanna fight, but i dont wanna be a paladin, I like being slightly evilish-neutral, i dont wanna be a barbarian, I like reading...kinda, I dont wanna be a ranger, I like not having oodles of skills to keep me awake at night, I dont wanna be a monk...I like weapons"

this leaves you with....FIGHTER!

 

[Walking Dad]

Dragon's are maybe a bit unfair, as they are generally more powerful than their CR suggests..

on the other hand, I only know Magical Affinity as a modern d20 feat. In which book is the 3.5 variant?

Challenges:
Monstrous Scorpion Gargantuan (in a flat desert, it's natural environment)

Hellwasp Swarm

 

[Walking Dad]

you play a fighter because you are like "I wanna fight, but i dont wanna be a paladin, I like being slightly evilish-neutral, i dont wanna be a barbarian, I like reading...kinda, I dont wanna be a ranger, I like not having oodles of skills to keep me awake at night, I dont wanna be a monk...I like weapons"

this leaves you with....FIGHTER!

A barbarian can spend skill points on literacy and still has more than the fighter... and the disadvantage of the ranger...

Yes, if you want to play a character with only a few bad skills, nothing beats the Fighter.

 

[Dandu]

Dragon's are maybe a bit unfair, as they are generally more powerful than their CR suggests..

Alright, perhaps a CR 10 Eleven Headed Hydra is more appropriate?

 

[pawsplay]

Adult Black Dragon, CR 11
Large Dragon
Initiative: +4
HP: 199 (19d12+76)
Speed: 60 ft, fly 150 (poor), swim 60
AC: 27 (-1 size, +18 natural), touch 9, flat footed 27
Base attack/Grapple: +19/+29
Attack: +24
1 bite: 2d6 +6
2 claws: 1d8 +3
2 wings: 1d8 +3
1 tail slap 1d6 +3
Breath Weapon: 12d4 acid damage, reflex DC 23
Frightful Presence DC: 20
Blindsense 60 ft
DR5/Magic
Darkness 3/day, radius 60 ft
Corrupt Water 1/day

Feats:
Power Attack, Blind Fight, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Snatch

Casts spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer
Spells known (1st level only):
Mage Armor
Shield
Obscuring Mist

Spells/day
1st level: 6+1

Skills: Hide 22, Move Silently 22, Listen 23, Search 23, Spot 23, Concentration 26, Use Magic Device 22

Equipment:
2 Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell, Lesser. 6000 gp total
10 wands of CLW, 7500 gp total

Please elucidate how you are "totally able to go toe to toe with" this CR appropriate dragon.

The fighter's attack bonus only three lower, and he has a better damage output. The dragon does have Snatch, but the dragon sacrifices a lot by hanging onto an opponent. The darkness is kind of a nasty aspect of this fight, but it's almost as disadvantageous for the dragon as for the fighter (both would be operating at a miss chance). Even on a failed save, the fighter is only looking at about 30 damage from acid breath, which means our fighter would have to be breathed upon three times and fail all three times in order to be killed by breath alone.

With mage amor and shield up, the dragon's AC is 35, I think, which will take a 17 to hit with an arrow. Darkness complicates the situation, but we can probably assume an average of about 4-5 hp/round from a full attack, using the bow. Let's assume, just for fun, a party of four such fighters. Doing 16-20 damage a round, the fighters are doing only slightly less damage, while having, among them, four times as many hit points. The dragon can stall for time by creating a number of stationary obscuring clouds, and can attempt to catch at least two fighters in its breath per breath, but ultimately, it looks like the dragon is almost certainly going to lose.

If we imagine a more "normal" party, assuming casting backup, or the fighters know in advance they are fighting a dragon, dispel magic makes the fight trivial. The fighter can hit AC 27 with low rolls, whether in melee or ranged.

So, even considering the adverse situation of a flying caster, and dragons being under-CR'd, as a rule, the ultimate result is still much as expected: the CR 11 dragon goes down. In a CR-appropriate solo fight, it takes only a glance to see that a lone fighter can probably take down even a CR 9 young adult.

 

[Dandu]

What is your countermeasure to the dragon flying in, snatching a fighter, flying off, breathing on him (no reflex save to avoid damage) and dropping him far away and far below?