D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a Fighter? (3.5)

[ForceUser]

Why be a Fighter? (3.5)

Because fighters rock. Nuff said.

 

[Flyspeck23]

And here is were the problem lies. Not everybody wants to play a combat generalist. They want a specialist and once they have taken the necessary number of feats to be good in that area they move on to another class that can provde them better goodies.

So? If you want a specialist, play a specialist. A ranger perhaps, or a paladin. Or whatever. But everyone who wants to be good at many fighting styles (with many options etc.) can take the fighter - and stick to it 'til level 20.

 

[Bleys]

Does it have a feat for heaving witches in to hearth fires?

I'd say Throw Anything would cover that.

 

[Fedifensor]

So? If you want a specialist, play a specialist. A ranger perhaps, or a paladin. Or whatever. But everyone who wants to be good at many fighting styles (with many options etc.) can take the fighter - and stick to it 'til level 20.

Or you could take prestige classes, which gives you unique special abilities instead of the same feats you were choosing from several levels ago. A few levels of Order of the Bow give you "feats" you'll never get as a fighter, like being able to shoot in melee without taking attacks of opportunity. A few levels of Duelist give you an AC bonus and extra initiative (that stacks with Improved Initiative). Not only is each ability as impressive as an extra feat, but it's something the Fighter doesn't have access to.

 

[Pickaxe]

Or you could take prestige classes, which gives you unique special abilities instead of the same feats you were choosing from several levels ago. A few levels of Order of the Bow give you "feats" you'll never get as a fighter, like being able to shoot in melee without taking attacks of opportunity. A few levels of Duelist give you an AC bonus and extra initiative (that stacks with Improved Initiative). Not only is each ability as impressive as an extra feat, but it's something the Fighter doesn't have access to.

If you have those prestige classes in your campaign. Prestige classes are supposed to be campaign specific, and they are often designed to attract certain classes. So, I don't think "every fighter will become prestige class x" is a criticism of the fighter class as much as it is a sign that a prestige class is unbalanced or broken.

I would only feel there was a problem with the fighter if it paled by comparison with the other core classes. As far as high BAB classes go, I'm not convinced that the fighter has been surpassed. At worst, the barbarian may surpass the fighter in pure melee damage power at higher levels, with Greater Rage coming earlier and the addition of Mighty Rage. Even still, my feeling is that fighters can pursue a career that includes mastery of melee, missile, and armor-based defense. No other high BAB class can do all three as well.

The only other potential problem I see with the fighter is that AC doesn't appear to keep up with attack bonuses at high levels. Thus, at lower levels, barbarians may do more damage than fighters but suffer in terms of AC. If AC differences become meaningless at higher levels, fighters lose an advantage over barbarians. I haven't played any high level campaigns, so others may be in a better position to confirm or refute this.

--Axe

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

How fighters do for AC will, of course, depend upon the campaign. However, a sword and shield fighter can have AC 45 (+5 mithral fullplate, +3 dex, +5 heavy shield, +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, Dodge, Haste) or AC 43 (as above but Adamantium fullplate) and DR 3/- (two handed style fighters will use dancing shields; two weapon fighters may either use a dancing shield or a light shield with the TWF and Two Weapon Defense feats for the same AC). With Tower Shields and/or Expertise, their AC can reach 52 in mithral fullplate or 50 with the adamantium fullplate DR. That's enough to scale with typical attack bonusses.

It usually significantly outclasses the barbarian (although the paladin can do nearly as well defensively) who will typically choose to wear light armor in order to preserve his fast movement (although mithral fullplate is a conceivable high-level barbarian choice). However, even a defensively focussed barbarian (and when was the last time you saw one of them?) will be 7 to 10 points of potential AC lower than a similarly equipped fighter when raging for the following reasons: -2 for rage; -1 (potentially) since dodge is a lousy feat and the opportunity cost is much higher for a barbarian; -5 for the inability to use expertise while raging; -2 if the fighter is using a tower shield (barbarians aren't proficient). Against high CR opponents, that kind of an AC difference will translate into a LOT of extra damage/round.

The only other potential problem I see with the fighter is that AC doesn't appear to keep up with attack bonuses at high levels. Thus, at lower levels, barbarians may do more damage than fighters but suffer in terms of AC. If AC differences become meaningless at higher levels, fighters lose an advantage over barbarians. I haven't played any high level campaigns, so others may be in a better position to confirm or refute this.

--Axe

 

[Valiantheart]

You have some good points, but I dont know why everyone assumes the fighter is going to have a "7 to 10" point armor class edge over a barbarian. A barbarian can use a shield just as well as a fighter can.

Also, I dont know many fighter players who are jumping at the opportunity to use a tower shield and take a -2 to hit on every attack. Big benefit that is.

At most the the Fighter could use Full plate while the Barb will be in Breastplate, but if you are going to give any ol run of the mill fighter +5 fullplate, large shield, ring of protection, and amulet of natural armor then I dont know why a Barb couldnt find an item to give him a +4 to dex also. Especially since he doesnt have to worry about finding that precious item of Fortitude that the fighter desperately needs. In that case he would be behind the fighter by 1 AC point AND have 5 DR.

 

[Hejdun]

Fighters suck because:

1 - Their abilities don't scale. A spellcaster's power grows exponentially, a fighter's power is linear. Somewhere around level 5-6, spellcasters just pass up fighters on the power scale, and from then on, the differences just keep growing.

2 - Fighters are horrible defensively. Yup, you heard me, the grand master of AC is perhaps the worst defensive character in the game. "How so?" you might ask, well, I'll tell you.

a) Sucky saving throws. Let's face it, any spell requiring a will save will defeat the fighter any day of the week. Even if the fighter makes a concerted effort to bump up saving throws, he sill has a 50% chance (if he's lucky) of surviving all those save vs. horrible situation spells.

b) No buffing. Whereas spellcasters can choose to expend their spells to buff up if they know a big combat is coming up, a fighter can't raise his temporary strength at all.

c) No "oh-crap" abilities. Spellcasters can get the hell out of Dodge if the feces starts spraying, a fighter is just screwed. He's moving at 20" x3 a round, which is significantly slower than most monsters, so he can't really run. He can't teleport or dimension door, so that's out also. If he gets into a sticky situation, he'll have to fight like hell to get out of it, and if he fails, well, too bad.

d) If he gets grappled, then it's up to the party to save him, 'cause the fighter is screwed.

3 - Magic item dependancy. The four issues I just addressed can all be countered or alleviated using magic items, but that also means that if you take away a fighter's magic items, he's virtually useless. He becomes the party torchbearer.

4 - Absolutely no versatility. The narrow focus of feats (read: combat only) and absolutely horrid skill set (skills? What skills?) means that the fighter is absolutely useless outside of combat (where he's outshined anyways). In fact, he's a liability. Want to teleport? You gotta bring along the armored can too. Going swimming? You'll have to use spells to make sure can boy doesn't drown. Need to sneak into something? You have to use spells to make jingle boy silent.

The fighter achieves dominance over the battlefield until roughly level 5-6, after which he can usually at least contribute to combat until level 10 or so, after which he gets demoted to meat shield duty, a job he can't even perform well due to his horrible saving throws and lackluster hit points compared to a monster's damage output per round.

 

[takyris]

I'll let the math geeks (term intended with respect) duke out who can do the most damage. From what I've seen, the fighter outclasses the barbarian in combat as long as the DM sets up a wide variety of combats -- or caters to those forms of combat in which the fighter specializes.

What I WILL say, though, is that the big problem I've seen with fighters in the different games I've played, DM'd, and watched, is that fighters inherently lack flavor. All the other classes can refer to the book to show what a cool effect that fireball is, how bold they are to turn the undead, how they cunningly stab at the enemy's unprotected flank, or even how their mighty rage courses through them. The fighter doesn't really have that, which often makes the fighter's player a bit bored.

As a solution, I've found that adding flavor text to fights really helps. It makes battles longer, so I only do it in big fights, but it made the fighter's player really appreciate the fact that he just avoided a hit from an advanced umber hulk with a gargantuan greataxe because he has mobility... or whatever feats he does have that are working for him.

 

[Pbartender]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to play a single-classed fighter to 20th level.

Amongst the people I play with, there's only been two classes that anyone has ever even considered taking single classed all the way to 20th level...

Cleric and Wizard.

Every other class was planned to be multiclassed into, or multiclassed out of, or prestige classed out of.

Here's a 20-level fighter character concept...

The ultimate mounted archer:

Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Shot on the Run
Dodge
Mobility
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Skill Focus (Ride)
Animal Affinity
Weapon Focus (bow of choice)
Greater Weapon Focus (bow of choice)
Weapon Specialization (bow of choice)
Greater Weapon Specialization (bow of choice)
Improved Critical (bow of choice)

That's all 18 feats for a 20th level Fighter. If you are a human, you get one more. Skill points are sunk into Ride and Handle Animal first.