Why D&D is slowly cutting its own throat.

[Ds Da Man]

Hey, sometimes games just get "old". Heck, more and more "burned out on D20/D&D" threads keep appearing. Its just natural that after years of selling the same thing, less will be sold. I also believe that WotC are geniuses for creating (or allowing the creation therefore of) the SRD/OGL. They have more crap in production, for more genres, then any other company out there, and they don't produce a lot of it!
And while your worrying about the demise of D&D, you seem to forget another powerful, brillant move by WotC/Hasbro, the campaign setting search. Man, do you know how many settings were sent in? They have been consistantly making wise decisions regarding D&D, and will be producing D&D for a long, long time!

 

[KnightSavant]

The Real Problem

The problem is one of product vs. art. The interest these days is in producing a game that sells without any regard for making an artful game. There simply is little real love in the design anymore and there never will be again. Those days are over. D&D was born more out of a deep love for mythology and story telling not out of a desire to make money. Ask just about any former creative employee of TSR what their salaries were. Nope. The scales have shifted entirely over to pure profit. Now all that matters to the executives at big game companies is making money - same as with the rest of corporate America. It's all about the quick raid and the cheap marketplace victory.

I have as a result become a class of gamer that is difficult to sell to. I've made a conscious decision that my gaming needs are finite. I have the core books. I'm done. I have the software I need to design my own game world. I'm done in that arena too. I will purchase a finite number of miniatures, paint them and when I have my collection I'll be done there too. I refuse to make the old men rich. There may be some smaller creative shops I'll buy from but that's about it.

That's my two silver pieces anyway...
http://www.awizardindallas.com

 

[meleeguy]

I have the core books. I'm done.

Exactly. It is either that or move into the WotC barn and say "Moo".

I've justed playing again after leaving in the early '80s. I shudder to think what a complete set of rules (and I don't mean just core) costs. I don't feel like a competitive DM if I don't allow at least the Complete * series.

I can live with the fact the D&D is now under the control of professional capitalists (grow or die), but please do more testing. 3E feels like Windows 3.1.

 

[S'mon]

What's a competitive GM?

As a (good, I think) GM I certainly don't feel the need to buy any player-oriented stuff beyond the PHB, though I did get Mongoose's Quint Rogue & Fighter as they fit nicely into my low fantasy setting.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Exactly. It is either that or move into the WotC barn and say "Moo".

I've justed playing again after leaving in the early '80s. I shudder to think what a complete set of rules (and I don't mean just core) costs. I don't feel like a competitive DM if I don't allow at least the Complete * series.

I can live with the fact the D&D is now under the control of professional capitalists (grow or die), but please do more testing. 3E feels like Windows 3.1.

As opposed to later 2nd ed. which feels like APL?

This version actually got a lot more testing than previous editions... Then again, I fill most of my RPG purchase needs with 3rd party publishers. Most of the official WotC stuff (including the Completes) does not engage my interest.

The Auld Grump, now Iron Kingdoms...

 

[haakon1]

I'm seeing a new trend in D&D/D20 in which D&D has become little more than a player toy. How many books of players options exist out there? How many prestige classes have been published? How many feats exist in the game? . . .

Where is the game content? Arguably, someone at TSR must have realized where the real value lies, and Eberron is a good start but unless Eberron produces the sort of modules and memorable published campaigns that were produced by previous worlds, Eberron is going to eventually face the fate of Birthright or Al-Quedem - settings with tremendous great flavor but no intellectual property of any real value.

Where are the great modules? Doesn't anyone at TSR realize that the true value of D&D has always been its great modules? Is all 3rd edition going to be remembered for come 4th edition is 'Sunless Citadel'? Are we going to need a Return to the Return of the Temple of Elemental Evil?

I agree. Some really solid modules set decisively (not halfheartedly) in Greyjhawk would be a very good thing. Bruce Cordell, Gygax, Kuntz, Roger Moore -- those are the guys to do it, if anyone can anymore.

If I had to vote on the memorable elements of 3e:
The Sunless Citadel
The Standing Stone
Three Days to Kill

That's about it . . .

 

[James Heard]

I'm absolutely certain that the D&D brand is in a lot better shape than the original poster gives it credit for and that d20 only strengthens that brand in a way that GURPS never got respectively strengthened. HERO got sort of strengthened by Champions in a similar way, and I suppose you could even wag a finger at Sembieda's babies as increasing the branding ability for 1E & 2E (in the "Gee, a lot of this looks hella familiar" category). Anyways, it's not about the strength of the product so much when you're marketing the d20 brand, it's about producing something that's a complementary product to a enormous variety of other products based upon a brand (D&D) that's already the market leader. Complementary product sales drive up the sales of their complements, it's basic economics 101. GURPS leans on itself, but the core game just isn't as strong as D&D is. D&D is the substitution product (again, basic econ) for GURPS, so unless GURPS can somehow face down and outbrand the complements AND D&D it's always going to be in a lesser market position. I think there's a good case that White Wolf has been the smartest player in this, since they started with a strong internal brand and also joined in on the complementary branding to keep up their market share until they could revise and get a push from their revision. I admit though, crucial to WOTC's product schedule in this scheme of things is to produce core products at some brisk pace to push the sale of their other stuff like novels. Whether or not it costs a lot of money or not, WOTC will have to print a 4E before too long to start a new sale cycle and force the other publishers to join them. Not a revision of 3E like 3.5 - it will have to be something different enough to distinguish itself from the former products that it will require a substantial investment of some sort.

 

[haakon1]

I think, at a certain point in the game's publishing history, that modules _became_ unprofitable, or produced profit margins unattractive to large corporations, but I find it very, very difficult to believe that this was the case during the 1980s "heyday" of D&D.

So, how do we get back to the heyday? I think Maure Castle was quite popular . . . please, sir, can we have some more of that sort of thing?

Less crunch, less psionic flying interdimensional clockworks that only work in specific settings, more classic rock D&D that kicks orc and works in any setting. OK?

 

[S'mon]

Hm, I ain't buying 4e before about 2008-09! People bought 3e because they were unhappy with 2e, in many cases had left D&D entirely. I don't really see that with 3e, though there clearly are dissatisfactions in terms of 3e being too crunchy, too player focussed, that kind of thing. There would be a market for a much more streamlined, less tactical, less crunch heavy 4e, but would it be a more profitable market than currently? I doubt it.

 

[Erik Mona]

Every single homebrew GM worth his Cheetos writes good fluff.

Wanna bet?

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon