Why D&D is slowly cutting its own throat.
- Thread starter Celebrim
- Start date
Umbran said:
I disagree. If writing good fluff was easy there would be a lot more good novels and stories on the market. Writing BAD fluff is easy, just like writing bad crunch is easy. And even then most people do not have the discipline to sit down and write.
For a fairly large percentage of the population talking about writing is about one million times easier than sitting down and writing. Most people, when push comes to shove, don't have the mental state necessary to write -- and they're definitely unprepared to write for extended periods of time.
Erik Mona said:
Sure, Mr. Mona. So long as we are using my definition of "worth his Cheetos". And, so long as we both recognize that in my definitions, "good" does not require it to be useful to anyone other than the gaming group for whom it was originally built.
philreed said:
I am separating "the task is difficult" from "the person doesn't have the gumption to get it done". Cleaning my desk is by no means difficult, but my desk is a mess because I don't simply don't care enough to muster myself up to do it. Given sufficient motivation, the mental state would appear.
Of course, since gaming is a niche market, sufficient motivation (meaning - reasonable chance of impressive monetary return) is going to be darned hard to come by.
The one time I can think of sufficient motivation coming up to display the point was WotC's setting search. And, by all accounts, it revealed quite a bit of good fluff running around out there.
Umbran said:
Well, if you place a low value on Cheetos, then it doesn't do much to support your assertion that writing good fluff is easy. Good means better than adequate, beyond mediocre. OTOH, if you place a meaningful value on the price of Cheetos, then you're simply wrong, because by-and-large DM's are pretty half-assed about their fluff. It's either highly derivative or nonexistant.
Of course, we're talking about opinions based solely on empirical evidence. Maybe you've had such splendiferous DM's that you can take them for granted. Or maybe I've just got the market on half-assed DM's cornered.
Umbran said:
There is no qualitative value to clearning your desk. Clean desks do not impress. People do not take "creative desk-cleaning" courses in college. Then again, this being your definition and all, I have to inquire if you think "good fluff" requires creativity or other skills associated with good writing?
Last edited:
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Umbran said:
It looks like you just undercut your own argument - by placing a very low value on 'good'.
Good fluff is fluff that can be read by a total stranger and give a feeling for the world and its cultures. We are after all talking about marketable products in this thread - would you feel that you had purchased 'good' fluff if you bought what you have just described? I would not.
Though on the subject of the market value of half-assed DMs... what does that translate to in Cheetos?
The Auld Grump
haiiro
First Post
Storm Raven said:
Perhaps they can be more like "loss leaders" in the retail industry: some portion of 20% of the gaming population (the DMs) buys a memorable module, and their groups play through that module. This may not make that much money, but it gives those groups a common point of reference -- and an experience that in some ways "defines" D&D, much like Temple of Elemental Evil and the like did in their day.
I get the vibe that the Shackled City adventure path may eventually be thought of in this way, particularly once the hardcover collected version comes out.
Well this topic is breaking down. I concur with the market. If modules made money, there would be more modules. There were a bunch of modules, they didn't make much money. The cost of making modules may have gone up.
Now for the point about fluff writing, cheetos, and half-arsed DMs. For a real example, consider this: I can write 3 pages of text in about 2 hours. I can write "fluff" and do so in the form of a website and newspaper for my campaign world. For my adventures in my homebrew campaign (aka, D&D rules, my world, my map, my adventures), I support Mona's statement, what I write for a homebrew adventure is minimal.
Here's a dump of the last adventure I ran (not claiming to have a good or pretty adventure, I suspect other DMs are equally sparse):
15th Adventure
“Darkness Crossing”
03/26/05
Extra Print-Outs needed:
5x Currents of Tarai
2x Combat Maneuvers
Tool URLs:
Combat Conditions: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm
D20 SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm
Players:
Lt. Commander Jean Pierre Latour – paladin – Paul
Lt. Viktor Sluchesk – fighter – Greg
? – ? – Jeff
Lt. Commander Darwin DeWare – rogue – Ned
Marie Giavani - wizard - Nicole
Darwin DeWare is captain of the Maiden’s Spear
Fosian and Sindael have been reassigned
The Game:
Current Date: Wenan 30th, 1366
Location: Island of Karnos, at the port city of Koumos
Ship: Maiden’s Spear
The dreams continue. Each night. The flames. The screams. The last act. The light. Yet the answer to Jean Pierre’s question eludes him. Was it the hand of Verun, reaching down to spare him? A visit to the temple of Verun puts it into perspective. The answer will tend to itself. Jean Pierre remains. He has his duty. He will hold the line. When the answers come, everything will change.
Viktor trains his marines. They are like iron. The Maiden’s Spear is the anvil, and he is the anvil. When the time comes, they will be ready.
Darwin asks Marie to investigate his sword’s background and powers. She tells him it will take some time. While he is waiting, he teaches his Amber and her mother Shelby some swordplay. This inspires Darwin to go to Ritali and enter the Fencing Trials. He is easily granted leave by Arama, aside from running a simple delivery errand to Coran. At the trials, competition is fierce. Things were going well, until he sprained his ankle when Sharina Adar, one of the skilled competitors, slipped on a wet stair while going to the arena, and Darwin caught her, albeit they both tumbled to the bottom. Darwin’s injury immediately removed him from the competition. Sharina felt so bad, she dropped out from the competition. While Darwin recuperated and skulked, she stopped by Darwin’s room and brought him food. They became close, though her duties in the Explorer Corps soon called her away. Darwin and Sharina keep in touch at infrequent visits, where their paths crossed.
Marie studies the spell book that was recovered from the rogue wizard. It contains mostly summoning spells. Marie manages to learn a few of the spells, that are within her reach. In addition, Darwin asked her to research his sword. The sword’s stony, wet surface is intriguing. While her own research tells little of the sword, she does get one lead. There is a reclusive wizard with some background in magical blades. Haraka.
Assuming the party goes to see Haraka:
It takes some time before the Maiden’s Spear gets orders that take Darwin to the vicinity of Haraka. An island. A man. Apparently, no man is an island, unless he has an ego the size of one. The journey there is uneventful. The island draws near. The shore is rocky and jagged, like black blades. The dock is crewed by heavily scarred workers. It is unclear what species they are.
The tower of Haraka stabs into the sky like a wound. The top is flat, with 6 sharp points rising up above it. The walls of the tower appear to have a black scaly texture, though the scales appear elongated. An ominous feeling cuts into you, making you uneasy.
The interior walls appear to be made of sword blades, laid together, overlapping.
There are several large brutish creatures about the area (ogres). The skin is brownish and is covered with the same cuts and scars.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm
Haraka stands 10 feet tall. His bluish grey skin contrasts coldly with his open black robe. Beneath it glints the black chain armor he wears. A red silk belt crosses his midsection. He wears a greatsword at his side casually, as if it were not there.
Haraka (Lawful Evil Ogre mage)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm
Gear:
art
bizarre idol, made of serpentine (960.4 gp)
carved harp of darkwood, with jet inlay and ruby gems (1,055.4 gp)
silver chalice with eye agate gems (55.6 gp)
coin
102,622 copper coins (1,026.22 gp)
potion
potion of blur (300 gp)
green-colored
sweet odor/taste
watery, cloudy appearance
ring
ring of swimming (2,300 gp)
weapon
greatsword +2 (8,350 gp)
-------------------
Total Value: 14,047.62 gp
Haraka welcomes the party and invites them to dinner to explain their visit. He insists on standing on ceremony. He is rather polite.
A mist rolls in around the island.
Haraka insists they stay the night, for their safety. Wait until morning, when the mist clears.
Things about the Darwin’s Blade:
Zha’Delkar (End of Darkness)
Protection from Fire (at 7th level, -5 damage from fire attacks)
Increases in Plus (per four levels, round down, minimum +1)
Haraka will tell Darwin about his blade, if the party agrees to run an errand for him
There is a tar pit on a nearby island. Haraka needs a gallon of it for his work. Naturally, it will be dangerous. Haraka has no boats of his own, he has supplies brought in twice a year. The tar pit should be inside a cave.
The Island of the Tar:
The beach is sandy, allowing you to take a launch out to the island. The rest of the beach is rocky and mountainous, and nearly as inhospitable as Haraka. Hopefully, this place is merely an extinct volcano.
An ettin is walking the sandy beach
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ettin.htm
XP: 2242
A quick recon along the beach, reveals there is a cave opening in the side of the mountainside.
The tunnel twists and winds for quite a way into the mountainside. It’s grows dark quickly, as the bends of the tunnel prevent the light from the entrance from reaching you.
(assume they light a torch)
The tunnel opens up to a large chamber. There floor is flooded with water, but there is a tunnel exit on the far side of the chamber, though it sits closer to the left. The ground slopes downward, toward the center of the chamber. It is slick and uneven. The chamber is roughly oval shaped and is 60’ by 50’ across.
DC12 reflex save to avoid slipping every 40 feet
Watching the party is an aboleth
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm
XP: 3051
The tunnel goes on farther, though it seems to be climbing up now.
A choker tries to grab one of the PCs when they pass
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm
XP: 249
After walking for a long time, you finally begin to see light ahead.
The tunnel opens up, into what must be the bowl of the volcano. You can see the rim soar above you at least a hundred feet. The bowl itself is two hundred feet across, and you’ve come out a rubble strewn crack near the side. In the center sits a black pool.
When the party fills their container, the pool starts bubbling. They broke the surface tension, which was holding back the trapped gasses, and now a cascade event is occurring.
The tar starts bubbling and the smell of sulfur fills the air. Soon a rumbling sound begins. The air is getting hot and it is hard to breathe.
If the party tries to climb up, the tar pit catches fire, causing more smoke and breathing difficulty. -4 to climb checks. After awhile, the center falls in, and a jet of lava shoots straight up, and sprays the rim side near by. The tunnel is still safe (unconnected from the main lava tube).
There's some fluff in there. There's very little flow control. It's mainly notes to myself on parts I'll need as the PCs get there. Not enough for a publishable adventure, and I certainly predicted where the PCs (people that I know personally) would go. For a real adventure, it'd border on railroading. I simply avoided writing material for stuff I didn't think they'd do.
In conclusion, writing an adventure takes fluff and crunch. Not rules, but well thought out pacing and options. I've seen the polls on EN World that reflect that most DMs make up their own adventures. The result is, modules don't make money.
Janx
Now for the point about fluff writing, cheetos, and half-arsed DMs. For a real example, consider this: I can write 3 pages of text in about 2 hours. I can write "fluff" and do so in the form of a website and newspaper for my campaign world. For my adventures in my homebrew campaign (aka, D&D rules, my world, my map, my adventures), I support Mona's statement, what I write for a homebrew adventure is minimal.
Here's a dump of the last adventure I ran (not claiming to have a good or pretty adventure, I suspect other DMs are equally sparse):
15th Adventure
“Darkness Crossing”
03/26/05
Extra Print-Outs needed:
5x Currents of Tarai
2x Combat Maneuvers
Tool URLs:
Combat Conditions: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm
D20 SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm
Players:
Lt. Commander Jean Pierre Latour – paladin – Paul
Lt. Viktor Sluchesk – fighter – Greg
? – ? – Jeff
Lt. Commander Darwin DeWare – rogue – Ned
Marie Giavani - wizard - Nicole
Darwin DeWare is captain of the Maiden’s Spear
Fosian and Sindael have been reassigned
The Game:
Current Date: Wenan 30th, 1366
Location: Island of Karnos, at the port city of Koumos
Ship: Maiden’s Spear
The dreams continue. Each night. The flames. The screams. The last act. The light. Yet the answer to Jean Pierre’s question eludes him. Was it the hand of Verun, reaching down to spare him? A visit to the temple of Verun puts it into perspective. The answer will tend to itself. Jean Pierre remains. He has his duty. He will hold the line. When the answers come, everything will change.
Viktor trains his marines. They are like iron. The Maiden’s Spear is the anvil, and he is the anvil. When the time comes, they will be ready.
Darwin asks Marie to investigate his sword’s background and powers. She tells him it will take some time. While he is waiting, he teaches his Amber and her mother Shelby some swordplay. This inspires Darwin to go to Ritali and enter the Fencing Trials. He is easily granted leave by Arama, aside from running a simple delivery errand to Coran. At the trials, competition is fierce. Things were going well, until he sprained his ankle when Sharina Adar, one of the skilled competitors, slipped on a wet stair while going to the arena, and Darwin caught her, albeit they both tumbled to the bottom. Darwin’s injury immediately removed him from the competition. Sharina felt so bad, she dropped out from the competition. While Darwin recuperated and skulked, she stopped by Darwin’s room and brought him food. They became close, though her duties in the Explorer Corps soon called her away. Darwin and Sharina keep in touch at infrequent visits, where their paths crossed.
Marie studies the spell book that was recovered from the rogue wizard. It contains mostly summoning spells. Marie manages to learn a few of the spells, that are within her reach. In addition, Darwin asked her to research his sword. The sword’s stony, wet surface is intriguing. While her own research tells little of the sword, she does get one lead. There is a reclusive wizard with some background in magical blades. Haraka.
Assuming the party goes to see Haraka:
It takes some time before the Maiden’s Spear gets orders that take Darwin to the vicinity of Haraka. An island. A man. Apparently, no man is an island, unless he has an ego the size of one. The journey there is uneventful. The island draws near. The shore is rocky and jagged, like black blades. The dock is crewed by heavily scarred workers. It is unclear what species they are.
The tower of Haraka stabs into the sky like a wound. The top is flat, with 6 sharp points rising up above it. The walls of the tower appear to have a black scaly texture, though the scales appear elongated. An ominous feeling cuts into you, making you uneasy.
The interior walls appear to be made of sword blades, laid together, overlapping.
There are several large brutish creatures about the area (ogres). The skin is brownish and is covered with the same cuts and scars.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm
Haraka stands 10 feet tall. His bluish grey skin contrasts coldly with his open black robe. Beneath it glints the black chain armor he wears. A red silk belt crosses his midsection. He wears a greatsword at his side casually, as if it were not there.
Haraka (Lawful Evil Ogre mage)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm
Gear:
art
bizarre idol, made of serpentine (960.4 gp)
carved harp of darkwood, with jet inlay and ruby gems (1,055.4 gp)
silver chalice with eye agate gems (55.6 gp)
coin
102,622 copper coins (1,026.22 gp)
potion
potion of blur (300 gp)
green-colored
sweet odor/taste
watery, cloudy appearance
ring
ring of swimming (2,300 gp)
weapon
greatsword +2 (8,350 gp)
-------------------
Total Value: 14,047.62 gp
Haraka welcomes the party and invites them to dinner to explain their visit. He insists on standing on ceremony. He is rather polite.
A mist rolls in around the island.
Haraka insists they stay the night, for their safety. Wait until morning, when the mist clears.
Things about the Darwin’s Blade:
Zha’Delkar (End of Darkness)
Protection from Fire (at 7th level, -5 damage from fire attacks)
Increases in Plus (per four levels, round down, minimum +1)
Haraka will tell Darwin about his blade, if the party agrees to run an errand for him
There is a tar pit on a nearby island. Haraka needs a gallon of it for his work. Naturally, it will be dangerous. Haraka has no boats of his own, he has supplies brought in twice a year. The tar pit should be inside a cave.
The Island of the Tar:
The beach is sandy, allowing you to take a launch out to the island. The rest of the beach is rocky and mountainous, and nearly as inhospitable as Haraka. Hopefully, this place is merely an extinct volcano.
An ettin is walking the sandy beach
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ettin.htm
XP: 2242
A quick recon along the beach, reveals there is a cave opening in the side of the mountainside.
The tunnel twists and winds for quite a way into the mountainside. It’s grows dark quickly, as the bends of the tunnel prevent the light from the entrance from reaching you.
(assume they light a torch)
The tunnel opens up to a large chamber. There floor is flooded with water, but there is a tunnel exit on the far side of the chamber, though it sits closer to the left. The ground slopes downward, toward the center of the chamber. It is slick and uneven. The chamber is roughly oval shaped and is 60’ by 50’ across.
DC12 reflex save to avoid slipping every 40 feet
Watching the party is an aboleth
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm
XP: 3051
The tunnel goes on farther, though it seems to be climbing up now.
A choker tries to grab one of the PCs when they pass
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm
XP: 249
After walking for a long time, you finally begin to see light ahead.
The tunnel opens up, into what must be the bowl of the volcano. You can see the rim soar above you at least a hundred feet. The bowl itself is two hundred feet across, and you’ve come out a rubble strewn crack near the side. In the center sits a black pool.
When the party fills their container, the pool starts bubbling. They broke the surface tension, which was holding back the trapped gasses, and now a cascade event is occurring.
The tar starts bubbling and the smell of sulfur fills the air. Soon a rumbling sound begins. The air is getting hot and it is hard to breathe.
If the party tries to climb up, the tar pit catches fire, causing more smoke and breathing difficulty. -4 to climb checks. After awhile, the center falls in, and a jet of lava shoots straight up, and sprays the rim side near by. The tunnel is still safe (unconnected from the main lava tube).
There's some fluff in there. There's very little flow control. It's mainly notes to myself on parts I'll need as the PCs get there. Not enough for a publishable adventure, and I certainly predicted where the PCs (people that I know personally) would go. For a real adventure, it'd border on railroading. I simply avoided writing material for stuff I didn't think they'd do.
In conclusion, writing an adventure takes fluff and crunch. Not rules, but well thought out pacing and options. I've seen the polls on EN World that reflect that most DMs make up their own adventures. The result is, modules don't make money.
Janx
Storm Raven
First Post
haiiro said:
Which is wonderful for the players, but not much good for the company producing the material, since they presumably want to make money. Loss leaders are useful, but moreof a "necessary evil" than something companies really want to be in the business of producing and selling. WotC farmed out its loss leaders by allowing other companies to use the OGL, which was apretty smart move. There are a wide variety of adventures and settings put out for 3e, certainly much more than WotC could have done on its own.
