Why D&D is slowly cutting its own throat.

[The Shaman]

Similarly, let's not disdain "what D&D has become", either.

Expressing one's disdain for the game-system isn't unreasonable - expressing disdain for another poster's opinions in a snarky way is, at least with me, which is why I asked Storm Raven to dial it back a bit.

 

[philreed]

I really don't find Celebrim's argument compelling in the least - when industry professionals like Erik and Phil come on and say how the field look, I trust them. Both've presented good, cogent arguments and have been summarily ignored by the original poster because it seems those assertations don't fit whatever obtuse point is trying to be made.

Dude, it's the internet. If information pops up that hurts your theory -- no matter how factual it is -- ignore it.

The internet is an awesome tool. Anyone with a keyboard and a connection can spout off about anything he knows or doesn't know. Hell, I'm spouting now. Where's that damn switch?

 

[Storm Raven]

Expressing one's disdain for the game-system isn't unreasonable - expressing disdain for another poster's opinions in a snarky way is, at least with me, which is why I asked Storm Raven to dial it back a bit.

Your arguments got the response their quality deserved.

 

[The Shaman]

But this would seem to imply that the more options an RPG gives you, the more it engenders twinking and hinders roleplay, and I don't think that's evident at all. Even 3e, with all of its options compared to past editions, is incredibly restrictive compared to most other RPGs.

First, I never said anything about the current rules hindering roleplaying. My dislike for D&D in its current incarnation is about adventure prep and pacing.

Second, that's exactly what I'm saying - the more mechanical complexity, the more a gamer is invited to focus on expanding mechanical advantages. Some gamers enjoy that - I'm not a member of that set. It doesn't make them good, me bad, or any permutation of the two - it's just personal style and satisfaction.

Just because it was obvious in 1e that you either played an elven f/m-u or used the stat-rolling method for humans from UA in order to make an uber PC doesn't mean that people didn't do it. Heck, every gol-dang character one of my buddes played in 1e was an elven f/m-u dual-weilding a longsword and shortsword.

And, really, calling 1e "simple" is just wrong. Simpler than 3e in many ways, maybe.

As with the Squad Leader analogy, it's a continuum for me, a point of diminishing returns inversely proportional to system complexity.

I didn't game with a lot of folks like your buddies, I guess - I can't remember anyone in our circle selecting characters for stats so much as playing a particular fantasy archetype.

IME, there are player types, and they will act according to type no matter what system you use. Certain systems may encourage some behaviors more than others, but I've always found that it always starts with the person.

Re-read what I emphasized in your quote, and you'll understand my point.

YMMV, I suppose.

It usually does.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Your arguments got the response their quality deserved.

Storm Raven, play nicely please. This last post wasn't really worth making.

Goes for everyone else too - I know this is a topic which has the possibility of people taking sides and getting annoyed at other peoples points (or the way that they have expressed themselves), but everything works *much* more nicely if we remember to stay civil towards one another.

Thanks for listening
</ moderator >

Regards

 

[Janx]

I keep hearing the same refrain, "there are no new classic adventures"

I think that's the flaw. Classic implies old. Meaning from many years ago. Many years ago, some DMs ran Tomb of Horrors at some conventions. Lots of people remembered it.

Right now, some DMs ran Sunless Citadel. But enough time hasn't passed for it to become "classic"

Celebrim, if you want to make modules, go do so. Even better, do some market analysis and put together a business plan on the profitability of modules. There may be a lack of good modules out there. But that doesn't mean you can afford to make good ones. Your competition is Dungeon Magazine and all the DMs who write their own adventures for their group. good luck.

Janx

 

[buzz]

Re-read what I emphasized in your quote, and you'll understand my point.

Oh, I do understand, I just differ with you on the player:system effect ratio is all.

<Purely_anecdotal>
I play HERO regularly, and it's one of the most flexible --and rules-heavy-- systems out there. FWIW, the campiagns I've played with it have been some of the most narrative, metagaming-free games I've experienced. Other people have told me they found the system a twink-fest. IM0, it's experiences like this that make me weight the player side of the above ratio more heavily.
</Purely_anecdotal>

Out of curiosity, is there another system or systems that you've found that better matches what you want out of your games? Just previous editions, or are there current ones you're leaning towards?

 

[Jim Hague]

Dude, it's the internet. If information pops up that hurts your theory -- no matter how factual it is -- ignore it.

The internet is an awesome tool. Anyone with a keyboard and a connection can spout off about anything he knows or doesn't know. Hell, I'm spouting now. Where's that damn switch?

Heh, true, too true. As for your question about numbers...well, I can't speak to official sales numbers, being only a freelancer for AEG during the time of WLD, but here in the Austin market, Dragon's Lair sold between 6 and an even dozen copies of WLD. Aside from a few niche d20 games like Midnight, I've never seen a d20 product sell like that. I sure as hell wasn't expecting it. Extrapolations can be made, but using the unusual market here as an example would likely lead to shaky numbers. The last time I spoke with jim pinto, he'd said that somewhere in the market of 1300-1400 copies had been sold and AEG was going for a reprint when their initial run ran out. Take with a grain of salt, YMMV.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I'd love to hear a real number with "very well." I mean, in this market very well could mean 1,000 copies.

Of course, 1,000 copies of a $100 book is still very well.

FWIW, going by Amazon sales rankings:

WLD - #24,679
Vampire: The Requiem - #41,902
Frostburn - #34,860
GURPS Basic Set: Characters (4th Ed) - #23,916

WLD might skew high on Amazon due to the high discount, but that still seems pretty respectable.

 

[philreed]

The last time I spoke with jim pinto, he'd said that somewhere in the market of 1300-1400 copies had been sold and AEG was going for a reprint when their initial run ran out. Take with a grain of salt, YMMV.

NOTE: The following numbers ARE MADE UP. They're based on past experience but they're completely MADE UP!!!


Okay, if we assume 1,500 have sold that's $60,000 for AEG (rough numbers here, assuming typical distributor terms). If we assume an average of 700 words/page at 800 pages we get 560,000 words. Paying $0.04/word would cost $22,400 just for the writing. Probably $8-$10/book for printing (just a guess based on previous experience) is another $12,000 if we go with the lower number. $1,000 for a cover. I have no idea how much interior art is in there but if we assume 1 full page/10 pages we get 80 full pages. $100/image (low) is $8,000.

So now we're at $42,400 and we haven't even discussed editing costs, cartography costs, shipping, marketing, or any other expenses that we're likely involved (such as overhead).

Hopefully AEG can sell about 2x and hit 3,000.

I would expect the biggest impact would have been on cash flow -- unless everyone was paid 30-90 days after publication AND enough copies were sold on release to cover expenses.