Why Did The Game Wimp Out On Monks?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have a player who plays monks non-stop.

All he does

and then tries to break rules to get his unarmed attack to do more damage.
And by break rules, I mean he "'didn't see why his unarmed attacked couldn't be made magical like the fighter's sword'"

Well, why can't it? Why is that so awful?

Fortunately, Paizo (probably unwittingly, not like they ever buff monks intentionally) provided the coup de grace to the argument that "a Monk's unarmed strike would have to be masterwork first in order to be enhanced!"

 

[Stormonu]

Huh, I thought ki strike itself essentially turned the monk's unarmed attacks into magical attacks.

But I notice the spell you linked to states "If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect."

I don't think I've ever seen masterwork fists listed anywhere.

 

[SkredlitheOgre]

From the Equipment section of the PRD:

"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality"

Since Monk fists are considered magic weapons after 4th level, my DM is playing that I can get my Unarmed Strike enchanted, allowing me to ditch the brass knuckles. We also house ruled that due to obtuse wording between the Monk's Unarmed Strike and the Two-Weapon fighting feat that Flurry of Blows doesn't carry the -2 for "fighting with two weapons," so it's just Monk level + Strength bonus.

Our group is now down to four people and my Monk is the second fighter, right behind the Barbarian. We had a Fighter as well, but she went in search of her parents (read: player picked up a second job). The Barbarian and I work well together, due to my Acrobatics and his Power Attack. We make liberal use of flanking. It works for us.

Also, we use rolled stats (4d6, drop lowest...I didn't know about that, so I just rolled 3d6 and took Elf as my race to give me decent stats) and I was determined to play a Monk regardless of how well I rolled. I suppose it all depends on how you want to play the character.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

From the Equipment section of the PRD:

"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality"

Since Monk fists are considered magic weapons after 4th level, my DM is playing that I can get my Unarmed Strike enchanted, allowing me to ditch the brass knuckles. We also house ruled that due to obtuse wording between the Monk's Unarmed Strike and the Two-Weapon fighting feat that Flurry of Blows doesn't carry the -2 for "fighting with two weapons," so it's just Monk level + Strength bonus.

Our group is now down to four people and my Monk is the second fighter, right behind the Barbarian. We had a Fighter as well, but she went in search of her parents (read: player picked up a second job). The Barbarian and I work well together, due to my Acrobatics and his Power Attack. We make liberal use of flanking. It works for us.

Also, we use rolled stats (4d6, drop lowest...I didn't know about that, so I just rolled 3d6 and took Elf as my race to give me decent stats) and I was determined to play a Monk regardless of how well I rolled. I suppose it all depends on how you want to play the character.

So if I cast magic weapon on a simple dagger it changes to a masterwork?

The nature of the monk's abilities relies on an inner strength, his KI, using kung-fu movies (what it is based off of) we can gather that the fist is not 'magical' but the inner strength powers it so, my argument is that the fist is not what is magical, the damage is, but it comes from within, while it is your DM's choice, I as DM say the monk cannot do that, for many reasons

 

[Walking Dad]

I have a player who plays monks non-stop.

All he does

...

I see. Can you please describe what is overpowered, too?

 

[SkredlitheOgre]

So if I cast magic weapon on a simple dagger it changes to a masterwork?

I suppose so. I would say it's masterwork until the end of that spell, but it doesn't really matter.

From the Equipment section of the PRD:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic."

So, yeah. I would consider it masterwork, but the bonus don't stack and there are no other benefits from it being masterwork.

The nature of the monk's abilities relies on an inner strength, his KI, using kung-fu movies (what it is based off of) we can gather that the fist is not 'magical' but the inner strength powers it so, my argument is that the fist is not what is magical, the damage is, but it comes from within, while it is your DM's choice, I as DM say the monk cannot do that, for many reasons

And then there's this, from the Unarmed Strike section of the Monk class:

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

So, if it's considered a manufactured weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve manufactured weapons, why shouldn't I be allowed to get the Frost special ability (which I have now with my brass knuckles) or any other special ability? The unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon, just like your dagger, a longsword, or a Dwarven urgosh. The same rule should apply.

This is the argument I used with my DM in order to get rid of what I thought was kind of a unique, but ultimately, annoying weapon, the brass knuckles. Our game is laid back. We're a 'beer and pretzels' kind of group. As long as it's fun and I'm not 'breaking the rules' (which nobody thinks I am), then everything's fine.

 

[Angrydad]

I suppose so. I would say it's masterwork until the end of that spell, but it doesn't really matter.

From the Equipment section of the PRD:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic."

So, yeah. I would consider it masterwork, but the bonus don't stack and there are no other benefits from it being masterwork.



And then there's this, from the Unarmed Strike section of the Monk class:

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

So, if it's considered a manufactured weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve manufactured weapons, why shouldn't I be allowed to get the Frost special ability (which I have now with my brass knuckles) or any other special ability? The unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon, just like your dagger, a longsword, or a Dwarven urgosh. The same rule should apply.

This is the argument I used with my DM in order to get rid of what I thought was kind of a unique, but ultimately, annoying weapon, the brass knuckles. Our game is laid back. We're a 'beer and pretzels' kind of group. As long as it's fun and I'm not 'breaking the rules' (which nobody thinks I am), then everything's fine.

Huh, based on the RAW you quoted I, as the DM, would have no problem with allowing weapon enhancements to be placed on a monk's fists. Maybe houserule it as some kind of magical tattoos on the backs of the hands/around the wrists or something like that.

 

[SkredlitheOgre]

Huh, based on the RAW you quoted I, as the DM, would have no problem with allowing weapon enhancements to be placed on a monk's fists. Maybe houserule it as some kind of magical tattoos on the backs of the hands/around the wrists or something like that.

Not that this is entirely relevant to the thread (but kinda-ish), but one of the things I dislike about the brass knuckles is that it 'limits' the unarmed strike to the fists. I say 'limits' in a kind of 'roleplaying combat' sense. That's why I wanted to get rid of the brass knuckles.

I did the tattoo idea, but not just on the hands or wrists. Go for a torso tattoo, so that the magic kind of 'radiates from the center,' to go with the Ki idea. Or get them on the wrists and ankles, although that might make your Monk look like a drunken sorority girl. But I think this is a good idea. I've also seen the idea of wraps for hands and feet, which I think could also work.