Why do DM's like Dark, gritty worlds and players the opposite?

[Theo R Cwithin]

Perhaps we should define what we mean by "dark and gritty". To some, it having means a deadly combat system. To others, it means having a forlorn and hopeless atmosphere or an absence of clear moral lines. Some sees it as having PCs that are no more special than NPCs while others see it as injecting real world societal problems into their game worlds.

This.

For me, the OP is a little difficult to understand, because it suggests that "dark, and gritty" and "colorful" campaigns are two opposite poles on a spectrum of possible campaigns. However, IMHO, dark doesn't necessarily mean gritty, and a colorful campaign can be quite gritty. Just as a personal example of how I view the terms, Ravenloft is dark but not particularly gritty, whereas Darksun is gritty and colorful. And I'm quite sure more than a few people will disagree with me on this!

Back to the OP: That's not been my experience.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Why do DM's tend like Dark, gritty worlds and players like colorful worlds where they can do/play anything?

No.

 

[Azgulor]

No, Farscape was a campaign that started "So, you're all captives on this prison ship that's actually alive..."

Exactly. Although rare (fortunately), I've run into players of the "look at my new shiny" mode who would have balked at the idea of being forced into being an escaped prisoner.

Perhaps I worded my examples poorly. The point being, the most frequent scenario I've experienced resulting in the kind of disconnect highlighted by the OP was when a player(s) was hell-bent on using a race or class that thematically didn't fit the campaign.

Some people like being the outcast/foreigner/freak-of-the-week monster race and sometimes they're cool characters to play. Sometimes they're not.

 

[Ariosto]

Where is this alleged trend? It seems pretty funny to me that there should be someplace in which most prospective DMs are sitting around with "dark" scenarios and no players -- while most prospective players are sitting around with no "light" campaigns in which to play.

> light bulb < "Hey! I could start up a campaign myself that's the kind of game in which I'd like to play! But - but then - then I would be a DM ... and I wouldn't -- I just couldn't -- like that kind of game any more ... "

 

[Azgulor]

I find it interesting that a bar in a 'Wretched hive of scum and villany' is held up as an example of not gritty. Even through getting the party together in that bar involved two deaths and a limbing, as well as rampant prejudice against droids.

What would that scene have need to qualify as 'gritty' in your book? Biowarfare?

I never said it wasn't gritty (as gritty as Ep IV gets anyway...). I was commenting on the fact that some players, eager to run new race X from splatbook Y, often assume that in the middle of a city in a predominantly human kingdom, expect to be able to walk into a tavern and mingle like the various alien races were doing in the cantina.

Can a campaign be set up to support that scenario and still be gritty? Of course it can. But to the OP's scenario, some players, upon hearing that the GM and other players want to run a city-based campaign in Altdorf in WHRP's Empire, decides to play a chaos-warped mutant and then balks at the idea that the populace, authorities, and Inquisitors will all try to kill him on sight...

(Yes, the example is extreme but apparently without it I'm failing to convey the point I was attempting to make.)

 

[pawsplay]

In my experience, it's actually in light-hearted action-comedy games that PCs get screwed the most. Look at Paranoia, or picture something resembling Indiana Jones. On the other hand, by the end of Touch of Evil, The Maltese Falcon, and Yojimbo, the protagonist has given on ground. Classic dungeon "gotcha" scenarios invariably involved warped humor and hilariously overdone traps or monsters.

 

[Ariosto]

Are the terms really just substitutes for Killer DM and Monty Haul respectively?

Whatever they are -- is such a dichotomy really representative, other perhaps than in someone's really messed up local game scene somewhere?

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I am another GM who's experiences do not coincide with those of the original poster.

Then again, for me 'Grim 'n' Gritty' is about the PCs being beacons of hope in a dark world - I want the PCs to be heroes, and the heroes to win. I just want it to be a damned hard road for them to travel to do so.

But I also let them see that they have made the world a somewhat better place by their efforts, so if you replace 'Grim 'n' Gritty' with 'Film Noir' you come closer to what I prefer.

So, I always try to remember the 'Die Hard Effect':

The Auld Grump

 

[The Shaman]

Just because individuals might vary doesn't mean that meaningful trends cannot be established. What is being said here is that there seems to be a disproportionately high number of DMs who want to run gritty worlds, and a relatively low number of players interested in playing in those gritty worlds.

Where is this alleged trend?

It might be interesting, for someone with the time and interest, to use some of the available data sources to see if there's any validity to this claim.

For example, one could use the play-by-post forums here and on other sites, or wiki sites like Obsidian Portal. Of course you're going to need a hard and fast means of defining and identifying what exactly 'grim'n'gritty' means in a gaming context.

 

[Ariosto]

It's dark and edgy, shadowy and fading, a world of vampire gnome-punk grunge! Because "retro" is always in fashion -- it's just a question of which era.

But "gritty"? Erm, no. Perhaps some fake low-res "pixel dust" on the CGI. No need to bust out the AC/DC vinyl and Arduin critical hit charts, eh?