Why do elves suck?

[DungeonMaester]

In AD&D Elves are 90% immune to ZOMG HATE.

---Rusty

 

[mhacdebhandia]

You did.

You seem to forget that Gary Gygax didn't invent Dungeons & Dragons by himself, or that he wasn't the only person who created material for the game even in its early days. In other words, that Gygax wasn't much inspired by Tolkien doesn't mean that Tolkien didn't influence the game - it just happened in other writers' works.

My point was simply that Moon-Lancer's assertion that Tolkien is responsible for the background and foreground of the game is clearly laughable, since one of the two creators didn't care much for The Lord of the Rings.

 

[Gothmog]

What is so funny to me is that nobody would bat an eye if we were making fun of orcs for being loud, stupid, barbaric, but they still have the "orcs are better than eveyone else" attitude. The reason people don't make much fun of orcs is that they aren't very entertaining to make fun of, and there aren't (many) raving fanboys for orcs. And if they are, they don't pretend to be sexy, cooler than thou, mysterious and angst ridden orcs. Scary thought though- orc goths!

Anyway, elves have always struck me as the worthless yuppie types- the ones concerned with making and maintaining a certain appearance, but who have no substance or talents to back up their arrogance. Or movies stars- pretty to look at, but with few other redeeming qualities and hedonistic personal lives that would make them ideal subjects on Jerry Springer. And people like that deserve ridicule if they can't back up what they claim, and walk around with major superiority complexes. At the same time, elves don't usually do anything practical- they are aloof, hide in their forests, and claim its someone else's problem while they deride other for being short-sighted and barbaric. They are like the worst traits combined from a yuppie, a ceberity, and a hippie. So yes, some people invite ridicule, but out of politeness to REAL people, most of us don't make fun of them. But a fantasy race whose feeling you can't hurt and who aren't real- its open season.

 

[Dark Jezter]

What is so funny to me is that nobody would bat an eye if we were making fun of orcs for being loud, stupid, barbaric, but they still have the "orcs are better than eveyone else" attitude. The reason people don't make much fun of orcs is that they aren't very entertaining to make fun of, and there aren't (many) raving fanboys for orcs. And if they are, they don't pretend to be sexy, cooler than thou, mysterious and angst ridden orcs. Scary thought though- orc goths!

Anyway, elves have always struck me as the worthless yuppie types- the ones concerned with making and maintaining a certain appearance, but who have no substance or talents to back up their arrogance. Or movies stars- pretty to look at, but with few other redeeming qualities and hedonistic personal lives that would make them ideal subjects on Jerry Springer. And people like that deserve ridicule if they can't back up what they claim, and walk around with major superiority complexes. At the same time, elves don't usually do anything practical- they are aloof, hide in their forests, and claim its someone else's problem while they deride other for being short-sighted and barbaric. They are like the worst traits combined from a yuppie, a ceberity, and a hippie. So yes, some people invite ridicule, but out of politeness to REAL people, most of us don't make fun of them. But a fantasy race whose feeling you can't hurt and who aren't real- its open season.

Very well put, Gothmog.

 

[molonel]

You seem to forget that Gary Gygax didn't invent Dungeons & Dragons by himself, or that he wasn't the only person who created material for the game even in its early days. In other words, that Gygax wasn't much inspired by Tolkien doesn't mean that Tolkien didn't influence the game - it just happened in other writers' works. My point was simply that Moon-Lancer's assertion that Tolkien is responsible for the background and foreground of the game is clearly laughable, since one of the two creators didn't care much for The Lord of the Rings.

http://www.theonering.net/features/interviews/gary_gygax.html

How did it influence the D&D game? Whoa, plenty, of course. Just about all the players were huge JRRT fans, and so they insisted that I put as much Tolkien-influence material into the game as possible. Anyone reading this that recalls the original D&D game will know that there were Balrogs, Ents, and Hobbits in it. Later those were removed, and new, non-JRRT things substituted–Balor demons, Treants, and Halflings. Indeed, who can doubt the excellence of Tolkien’s writing? So of course it had a strong impact on A/D&D games. A look at my recommended fantasy books reading list in the back of the original DUNGEON MASTERS GUILD will show a long list of other influential fantasy authors, though.

 

[Gothmog]

Very well put, Gothmog.

Thanks- thats been my public service announcement for the week.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

http://www.theonering.net/features/interviews/gary_gygax.html

How did it influence the D&D game? Whoa, plenty, of course. Just about all the players were huge JRRT fans, and so they insisted that I put as much Tolkien-influence material into the game as possible. Anyone reading this that recalls the original D&D game will know that there were Balrogs, Ents, and Hobbits in it. Later those were removed, and new, non-JRRT things substituted–Balor demons, Treants, and Halflings. Indeed, who can doubt the excellence of Tolkien’s writing? So of course it had a strong impact on A/D&D games. A look at my recommended fantasy books reading list in the back of the original DUNGEON MASTERS GUILD will show a long list of other influential fantasy authors, though.

Guild? Heh.

Gee, but that quote seems to me that it was the players' idea to have Tolkienesque elements in the game - doesn't it seem that way to you?

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Anyway, the issue of Gygax and Tolkien is a sidetrack, because it actually doesn't matter: If I dislike Tolkien's influence on D&D and want to strip it out as much as possible, I have the right to do so, because I'm not alienating anyone by doing so (given that I choose players who either agree with me or don't care at all).

If you love Tolkien and want more of it in the game, the same applies to you.

I like that Wizards of the Coast is broadening beyond the - to me - less valuable "traditional" set of fantasy concepts and producing settings like Eberron which do things differently with the same game material. That way, everyone wins.

 

[molonel]

Guild? Heh.

Gee, but that quote seems to me that it was the players' idea to have Tolkienesque elements in the game - doesn't it seem that way to you?

The point being, however, that Gygax did write it - which is exactly the opposite of what you claimed - and they are in the game, and he says that derived from Tolkien's work. Of course there were other influences. He said so. But Tolkien's influence was heavy, and tangible.

If it pleases you to think of him grimacing while he sat at his typewriter, pounding out the words with a group of gamers standing behind him holding axes, knives and various implements of torture, hey, whatever blows your hair back.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

clearly lotr wasen't on the list so it wasen't influenced by it. LOL